Let's recall the Darth Vader Redemption Arc as presented starting in "The Empire Strikes Back" and concluding in "Return of the Jedi."
Only the naive Luke believes that there is still "Good" in Darth Vader. Luke's actions are driven, in part, to bring his father back from the Dark Side. Luke is successful; at the end of all things in "Jedi" as the Emperor is Force-killing Luke in front of him, Vader throws the Emperor over rail into the abyssal core of the Death Star, presumably (fuck you, JJ Abrams, you retconning fuck) to his death.
That act saves the Galaxy from the continued horrors of a Dark Side-driven Emperor. But that result is a side-effect and was not Luke's intention, which was only to save -- redeem -- his father.
But what does Vader do to deserve redemption? Other than tossing the Emperor overboard out of his own self-interest, absolutely nothing. Does Vader apologize for killing billions of people during his reign as the Emperor's top enforcer with the most power weapon ever imagined? Does he apologize for killing countless Imperial functionaries who "fail" him because he sets impossible goals (seriously, the worst boss ever)? Does he apologize for sending Imperial troops to occupied planets to control them, strip them of their resources and enslaving their populations?
He does not.
He does not even _acknowledge_ his lead role in bringing terror the Galaxy. Luke doesn't mention it at all, even as they are at the heart of the main instrument of that terror, as the ragtag fleet of rebels are fighting and dying to end that terror.
No. All of that terror is forgotten in the instant he saves Luke's life by killing* (again, fuck you, JJ Abrams) the Emperor. "The Force" accepts him back to the Light Side where he becomes a Force Ghost like Obi-Wan and Yoda, no questions asked.
This is the shittiest redemption arc ever.
Post Script: Killing* (FYJJA) the Emperor and "redeeming" Darth Vader for valuable prizes does not end the evil. The evil is everywhere and the fight continues. It is why the First Order returns so easily after a short period of "peace" (and "The Mandalorian" shows us the fragility of that peace).
"Andor" shows us that many people join the Empire not in a fighting/stormtrooper role but in an administrative role. It is a job, nothing more, as banal as can be. At some point the functionaries we see don't even realize they are driven by raw evil. They have no idea the effects of their actions on actual people. They see the rebels as outlaws fighting against law and order, not as people fighting for their freedom from the Empire's neverending demand for resources. "Andor" is so powerful because the whole Jedi/Force/Emperor mythos is off-stage. It is not important to the story. It points out that as long as people (and did you notice that the Empire's functionaries are all human?) are willing to do bad things out of their own self interest, evil festers without so much as lifting a finger.
"Andor" also shows us the grim reality of fighting that evil: at some point, those on the "good" side must use the tools of their enemy against them. Evil drags everyone down to its level and the only salvation, in a sense, is that the good people using those tools remain aware of what they are doing. The evil by nature simply don't care.
All of that said, if Dick Cheney can get those functionaries to look into their own hearts and vote for their actual self-interest, we move forward. We cannot and should not forget the actions of Dick Cheney in his role promoting evil. But if -- and this is an ask that will not be answered -- if he acknowledges his role as one of the many Doctors Frankenstein who created the Trump monster, and he apologizes for it, then we should welcome him and work with him.
As the dwarf said, "You don't make peace with your friends."
Occam’s Razor suggests that whatever reason the Cheney’s have decided to endorse Kamala Harris, it absolutely relates more to the Cheney’s self-interest than either love of country or doing good for good’s sake.
Yeah, I’m with you, and if it gives some of the “classic Republicans” to vote for Kamala then it’s ultimately a good thing. Anything I’d better than 4 more years of the Giant Orange Pervert.
Sometimes, a person gets older and they look at the legacy they're going to leave in this world. I see this here a lot. We (including me) are fighting to leave the world a better place any way we can. I'm doing it here in my little part of Iowa as well. Cheney has a daughter to leave his legacy to. I think that might be part of this . Just this once, he met this moment with something other than contempt and nihilism. Liz has met the moment more than once in the public eye. I choose to give them enough credit that maybe this might be true. I do hope I'm right, but realize I don't really know.
I don;t care. This one act, while probably beneficial to the country and the world, doe not erase his history. I still have a 6 pack of Guinness saved for his grave.
Oh Liz, what a Cheney. Wyoming is a great place to find dinosaur fossils and looks really beautiful in the pictures I've seen. The downside is that it's fully of Cheneys. I just can't bring myself to say nice things about them, even if they seem to have the sense to not vote for the Snidely Whiplash pastiche.
I too enjoy the really big permission slip the Cheneys are writing but feel the need to remind them that they won elections by fearmongering to rubes about gun control, gays, and immigration. They didn't create MAGA, but damn, they watered the seeds with aplomb and vigor. Their (and many Rs) mistake was to assume that the rubes would always be their useful idiots and never dreamt that they could stop being useful.
Let's not forget the enlightened self-interest. The Cheneys want a country left that conservatives can someday rule again.
Chump gets 25th Amendmented on Day One, Vance is now in the Oval Office with Elon Musk and Peter Thiel both shoving their hands up his ass like a demented muppet, and Dick know what hedge fund managers do with their acquisitions: Strip them for parts and leave the carcass on the side of the road for someone else to clean up.
And these are people who don't agree with most of us types about practically anything. So if there's a bright orange line they won't cross and they're willing to support a Democratic ticket in 2024, what excuse do a whole lot of other Republicans have? The wishy-washy line, "I still can't vote for Harris" isn't sounding good at all. I mean, it never was, but now it sounds even worse. Come on Mitt, George W, and others, you can do it, too.
A very strong case why MAGA voters are stupid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrU6F-S8VMo
Let's recall the Darth Vader Redemption Arc as presented starting in "The Empire Strikes Back" and concluding in "Return of the Jedi."
Only the naive Luke believes that there is still "Good" in Darth Vader. Luke's actions are driven, in part, to bring his father back from the Dark Side. Luke is successful; at the end of all things in "Jedi" as the Emperor is Force-killing Luke in front of him, Vader throws the Emperor over rail into the abyssal core of the Death Star, presumably (fuck you, JJ Abrams, you retconning fuck) to his death.
That act saves the Galaxy from the continued horrors of a Dark Side-driven Emperor. But that result is a side-effect and was not Luke's intention, which was only to save -- redeem -- his father.
But what does Vader do to deserve redemption? Other than tossing the Emperor overboard out of his own self-interest, absolutely nothing. Does Vader apologize for killing billions of people during his reign as the Emperor's top enforcer with the most power weapon ever imagined? Does he apologize for killing countless Imperial functionaries who "fail" him because he sets impossible goals (seriously, the worst boss ever)? Does he apologize for sending Imperial troops to occupied planets to control them, strip them of their resources and enslaving their populations?
He does not.
He does not even _acknowledge_ his lead role in bringing terror the Galaxy. Luke doesn't mention it at all, even as they are at the heart of the main instrument of that terror, as the ragtag fleet of rebels are fighting and dying to end that terror.
No. All of that terror is forgotten in the instant he saves Luke's life by killing* (again, fuck you, JJ Abrams) the Emperor. "The Force" accepts him back to the Light Side where he becomes a Force Ghost like Obi-Wan and Yoda, no questions asked.
This is the shittiest redemption arc ever.
Post Script: Killing* (FYJJA) the Emperor and "redeeming" Darth Vader for valuable prizes does not end the evil. The evil is everywhere and the fight continues. It is why the First Order returns so easily after a short period of "peace" (and "The Mandalorian" shows us the fragility of that peace).
"Andor" shows us that many people join the Empire not in a fighting/stormtrooper role but in an administrative role. It is a job, nothing more, as banal as can be. At some point the functionaries we see don't even realize they are driven by raw evil. They have no idea the effects of their actions on actual people. They see the rebels as outlaws fighting against law and order, not as people fighting for their freedom from the Empire's neverending demand for resources. "Andor" is so powerful because the whole Jedi/Force/Emperor mythos is off-stage. It is not important to the story. It points out that as long as people (and did you notice that the Empire's functionaries are all human?) are willing to do bad things out of their own self interest, evil festers without so much as lifting a finger.
"Andor" also shows us the grim reality of fighting that evil: at some point, those on the "good" side must use the tools of their enemy against them. Evil drags everyone down to its level and the only salvation, in a sense, is that the good people using those tools remain aware of what they are doing. The evil by nature simply don't care.
All of that said, if Dick Cheney can get those functionaries to look into their own hearts and vote for their actual self-interest, we move forward. We cannot and should not forget the actions of Dick Cheney in his role promoting evil. But if -- and this is an ask that will not be answered -- if he acknowledges his role as one of the many Doctors Frankenstein who created the Trump monster, and he apologizes for it, then we should welcome him and work with him.
As the dwarf said, "You don't make peace with your friends."
He's consistent. He supported gay rights only after he had a gay daughter, and he dropped Trump once he turned the party against his daughter.
He's consistent like other conservatives who come around to the correct position when it affects them personally.
Occam’s Razor suggests that whatever reason the Cheney’s have decided to endorse Kamala Harris, it absolutely relates more to the Cheney’s self-interest than either love of country or doing good for good’s sake.
Here's the thing, though. We often (always?) say that the majority of conservative voters (those that are not wealthy, for example) vote against their own self-interest because of Sincerely Held Beliefs ® © ™. The Cheneys have seen the light. Their self-interest aligns with the continued future of our country as a democracy. If this gets rank-and-file Republican voters to do the same, it will be a win.
Yeah, I’m with you, and if it gives some of the “classic Republicans” to vote for Kamala then it’s ultimately a good thing. Anything I’d better than 4 more years of the Giant Orange Pervert.
Sometimes, a person gets older and they look at the legacy they're going to leave in this world. I see this here a lot. We (including me) are fighting to leave the world a better place any way we can. I'm doing it here in my little part of Iowa as well. Cheney has a daughter to leave his legacy to. I think that might be part of this . Just this once, he met this moment with something other than contempt and nihilism. Liz has met the moment more than once in the public eye. I choose to give them enough credit that maybe this might be true. I do hope I'm right, but realize I don't really know.
I don;t care. This one act, while probably beneficial to the country and the world, doe not erase his history. I still have a 6 pack of Guinness saved for his grave.
Oh Liz, what a Cheney. Wyoming is a great place to find dinosaur fossils and looks really beautiful in the pictures I've seen. The downside is that it's fully of Cheneys. I just can't bring myself to say nice things about them, even if they seem to have the sense to not vote for the Snidely Whiplash pastiche.
I too enjoy the really big permission slip the Cheneys are writing but feel the need to remind them that they won elections by fearmongering to rubes about gun control, gays, and immigration. They didn't create MAGA, but damn, they watered the seeds with aplomb and vigor. Their (and many Rs) mistake was to assume that the rubes would always be their useful idiots and never dreamt that they could stop being useful.
Wow, I wouldn't ever imagine myself being on the same team as Darth Cheney. But here we are!
Hey Dick, can you take Trump hunting with you? And maybe buy him one of those fancy sweaters, the ones with the 3 concentric circles on em?
Let's not forget the enlightened self-interest. The Cheneys want a country left that conservatives can someday rule again.
Chump gets 25th Amendmented on Day One, Vance is now in the Oval Office with Elon Musk and Peter Thiel both shoving their hands up his ass like a demented muppet, and Dick know what hedge fund managers do with their acquisitions: Strip them for parts and leave the carcass on the side of the road for someone else to clean up.
Sounds like Myth Robme's Bain & Co years!
Perhaps Dick is just jealous that trump has taken away his "most dangerous threat to democracy" title.
I am genuinely surprised that Dick Cheney turns out to be only 99% evil.
this is the perfect response.
There is no easy redemption for the likes of Dick. He needs decades and doesn't have that much time.
Dick Cheney is a RINO!
Reality is, if you consider Trump's erratic stance on....well, most policies, he's eventually going to be a RINO as well. (guns, abortion, etc)
There's no room for contradictions in a world of purity tests. It's cognitive dissonance all the way down.
"That’s the gol-durndest thing we’ve heard since Beggar’s Canyon voted for Mon Mothma after the Hutt Syndicate was dispossessed!"
That thar's some genuine Star Trek Gibberish!
Wasn't there something about students being attacked and raped on the campus he was President of and he didn't care all that much?
You might be thinking of Ken Starr, former president of Baylor.
You are right, sir, and thanks for the correction!
And these are people who don't agree with most of us types about practically anything. So if there's a bright orange line they won't cross and they're willing to support a Democratic ticket in 2024, what excuse do a whole lot of other Republicans have? The wishy-washy line, "I still can't vote for Harris" isn't sounding good at all. I mean, it never was, but now it sounds even worse. Come on Mitt, George W, and others, you can do it, too.