The Darling Child was a preemie, born at 28 weeks, or about 6 1/2 months. We spent some serious time in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. I was there, every day, 12 hours a day, with her. I saw some truly uplifting things--babies who survived daunting odds. And I saw some truly terrible things--babies who died, despite everyone's best efforts to save them.
I would ask these disgusting fetus people who make these crazy statements about 'abortions after birth' to spend some time in a NICU and then go on and on about their insistence that babies are being killed after they're born.
Big Orange, who has 5 kids, has most likely never changed a single diaper or spent 5 minutes comforting a sick child, seriously needs to shut his damn mouth about abortion, pregnancy, childcare or anything to do with women's issues.
I read this. This is in line with my experiences in the NICU, so I don't take your point. I should also add that, because the NICU in the hospital where I gave birth was understaffed, they came to me, as I was recovering from the emergency C and told me I needed to sign a release to move my critically-ill newborn to another NICU across town. Because the only things working on my were my hands, I ripped the transfer papers into shreds.
After she came home and I was fully recovered, I 'went to work' (as my Grandma would say) and raised funds to build a bigger, better NICU. It took a number of years, we tapped foundations, private wealth, had dinners and a big gala. But we did it.
One of the instruments we used was a film that was made about the situations these babies and families find themselves in. Heartbreaking.
But none of these babies, even the most ill, were killed after birth. They were given the most compassionate care, not discarded like garbage.
What bill are you referring to? Because I went through Senator Harris's voting record in the Senate and didn't see what you're referring to.
There were two votes that might pertain. One was S109, a bill to prohibit tax payer-funded abortions. She voted 'Nay', along with the rest of the Democrats on the cloture vote. It passed 48-47.
The second was HJRES43. a joint resolution submitted by Sec. HHS dealing w/compliance with Title X. Again, Harris voted 'Nay', along with the rest of the Democrats. The vote tally was 50-50 and the VP had to break the tie.
Please let me know what bill you're referring to and I'm happy to do the research.
Again, I speak from personal experience, not some propaganda I read on right-wing websites. I have first-hand knowledge of what these families and their children go through.
They've lost the argument and they know it. The majority of Americans support abortion. Their only option is to try and demonize a portion with hyperbole.
And the way they talk, you can tell they have no clue about the reality. They are so used to talking with the rubes in their bubble, they forget they make no sense to anyone outside of it.
"Now, if I were a very sincere person who opposed abortion due to a great love of babies, I would find that to be an incredible relief. I would celebrate such news, despite the fact that it should not be news to anybody, as it has always been very obviously illegal everywhere."
Allow me to share a passage from C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" which I find more and more relevant these days:
“Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one's first feeling, 'Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally we shall insist on seeing everything -- God and our friends and ourselves included -- as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred.”
It's something that stuck in my head when I first read it and I've long used it as a kind of test for whether a person is actually upset about an alleged atrocity or if they are just wanting an excuse to rage at something or someone.
I also try to bear it in mind as a test for myself. It is far too easy to get caught up in being outraged, especially if you believe it is righteous anger. Let's admit it, righteous anger feels good. But it's also a feeling that is easy to become addicted to. You start looking for reasons to continue it. You start believing things based on little to no proof and ignoring any evidence to the contrary, because you need that next hit. Why do you think MAGA people love Trump's rallies or alt-right people having tantrums on their various media? It's because that's where they get their top-up of what to be outraged about. (This is also why the thing they are specifically yelling about shifts so often. You can only yell about something for so long before it gets stale and just doesn't give the same rush as it did before, so you alter it a bit or find a new thing to yell about)
Anyway, like I said, I try to keep that passage in mind both for how others react to news that contradicts some horrible story they are angry about and to check my own reactions.
There is a very tiny slim issue that maybe kinda sorta applies to what the idiots are saying.
A newborn can be on hospice, if they are born with medical issues that basically cannot be fixed and the child won't have any quality of life. Everything will be done to make the baby comfortable, but no extraordinary lifesaving measures will be taken.
It's not setting aside the baby to die, it's acknowledging that even if a miracle happened the kid would have a short, devastating life of unbearable pain.
I think those situations were covered in this sentence:
"That being said, there are instances in which lifesaving interventions are not the standard of care — instances in which there is no chance for survival and the interventions will cause the child pain."
Just because there's a law forbidding a practice, it doesn't mean that practice is actually occurring. You could write a law forbidding the stabling of unicorns in urban neighborhoods, but no one is stabling unicorns, in neighborhoods anywhere.
The moderator said, "There is no place in the US where it is legal to murder a baby".
That was correct.
That was my point.
I have NEVER argued that I murder babies, nor eat cats, not do anything else that weird and ignorant Republicans claim that normal Dems do. I do not do any of these things.
I don't share this story much, because 1) it is LITERALLY the most painful and heartbreaking thing I have ever been through and B) it is not anyone's fucking business.
In 2007, at 19 weeks pregnant with twins (very, VERY much wanted) I went into premature labor due to an incompetent cervix. I'd had no signs or symptoms of anything wrong until I started having contractions. We were in the ER within an hour, but my cervix was already fully effaced by that time (meaning stretched thin, therefore nothing to grab hold of and sew shut, which is what is normally done for an incompetent cervix). The ultrasound showed the 'hourglass sign', meaning the amniotic sac was sagging out of the cervix. Despite all efforts, which included me being kept in a hospital bed with the head a yard lower than the feet, the situation did not improve. I started showing signs of infection. To protect my life and future fertility, the decision was made to terminate the pregnancy. I was induced, and our two children were born, alive. They died peacefully 15 minutes later, because at 19 weeks, they were not yet viable. I still don't know how I survived that grief and heartbreak. But I did, and because MY health was prioritized, I now have two amazing, living children, who make me SO PROUD, and SO HAPPY each and every day.
To each and every person who believes they know what is 'best' and 'right' in regards to women's health and reproductive choices: FUCK OFF.
NO ONE should get between a woman and her health care provider. NO ONE should make these gut-wrenching decisions except for HER.
This is what I mean about the nutjobs not understanding nuance-- not even wanting to entertain complex data that unfits their narrative. Not that this story is that nuanced, but to the lying, lazy masses it's just two many words. I can hear them saying "SEE? They were born alive and you just let them die!" It ain't nobody's fucking business, and so even talking about it is not only irrelevant, but an insult to all women. In fact, what am I even doing here?
Somehow we find strength in ourselves to move forward. Because there is no other way. I am so sorry for your loss. They're still out there waiting for you. I truly believe that.
Oh, wow, that must have been so painful for you.; every expectant mother's worst nightmare. Thank heavens you had the health care you deserved and were able to heal and now you have two awesome children. I hope we can secure that right for all women. No one should have to go through this without proper care.
So many families struggle with reproductive issues that are nobody's business but their own. I've had three kids (one died fifteen years ago this week at 2, but he was born) and two of those were conceived because of fertility treatments.
I've been through multiple miscarriages with partners (including one that needed DNC) and yeah, when I was very young, an abortion with one as well. We were fortunate enough to be afforded the opportunities for them in each instance at each juncture to make the proper decision for future well-being. With Dobbs, those choices have vanished for many women and it's atrocious.
Being able to have healthy families requires that we prioritize the health of the adults that are starting those families. You cannot say you care about life when you're willing to destroy lives so that one very narrow definition (forced birth) is the end all, be all.
Being pro-life is so, so much more than trying to control women. You know who knows what a woman needs? She does. And if she wants an opinion from someone other than her care provider, she knows how to ask for one.
I wept for you, reading this. I'm so sorry for your loss. So many people have stories like yours that the anti-choice people just refuse to acknowledge. I'm happy for your happy ending, for your living children. I would not have had my second child without a d&c to save my fertility after what they call a "missed miscarriage." But I wouldn't be able to have that procedure today in Mississippi.
Robyn, you missed the obvious. Demoncrats need to sacrifice babies in their Satanic ceremonies so that they will cause PAB to spout nonsense at televised debates. Ergo, babbies get murdered after birth.
They're not "pro-life." They are not "anti-abortion." What these organizations are are "anti-women." They oppose pre-natel care, peri-natel care and post-natel care.
They are "Forced Birthers. They force birth. with no help to the forced, because once they deliver they can all starve for all the FBers care. Because they are anti-women.
Sara Hucka-san saying that opening up more medicare options will not get more women in to see doctors. What will? I'd like to ask her. Taxi rides? Bus vouchers? Safer crosswalks? Threats or bribery? What a fekkin moron!
It should be amazing that she'll forego funds & thereby actively endanger her constituents in order to own the libs. Good thing lives aren't at stake...oh wait.
My guess: they honestly think that if they repeat the same falsehood enough times, smarter people will become exhausted with refuting it and just concede the claim. This often works, so it is a strategy they have come to rely on. It really is tiresome batting away the lies and misinformation these people propagate. When you realize that somebody is going to make you refute "2 + 2 = 11" a thousand times in a row, you may well give up and just pretend to agree with them. At that point, "11" becomes the operative answer. The field is theirs.
"if they repeat the same falsehood enough times, smarter people will become exhausted with refuting it and just concede the claim." Effectively, that's already happened, which is why they continue to repeat the falsehood. There is rarely any correction from the corporate media stenographers who "just report what was said." That's what made the debate "fact check" so remarkable. It rarely, if ever, happens.
I hope that someone has pointed out that the rate of post-birth infant mortality in the US has increased by THIRTEEN PER CENT since Roe v Wade was struck down. Because, yes, women who are now unable to access healthcare for non-viable pregnancies are being forced to experience the tragedy of giving birth to babies who are stillborn or unable to live outside the womb. They're not being killed - they are DYING, thanks to the GOP.
Sadly, I believe the figures are per 1k. In England, where I come from, the neonatal mortality rate (i.e., 0 to 28 days after birth) is 1.5 per 1K live births. In the US, it's now almost 2.5 times that @ 3.6 per 1K live births. And stillbirths are 70% more common in the US than in England, in part because little money and few resources are put into the measures that might prevent them. And then we come to the maternal mortality rate in the US, which is over 3 times higher than almost every other high-income country. Preventable tragedies and catastrophes are being visited upon so many Americans on a daily basis. It's outrageous and I'm frankly amazed that anyone has kids in this country.
Mods, cleanup needed on the ABC thread.
OK, here's the thing.
The Darling Child was a preemie, born at 28 weeks, or about 6 1/2 months. We spent some serious time in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit. I was there, every day, 12 hours a day, with her. I saw some truly uplifting things--babies who survived daunting odds. And I saw some truly terrible things--babies who died, despite everyone's best efforts to save them.
I would ask these disgusting fetus people who make these crazy statements about 'abortions after birth' to spend some time in a NICU and then go on and on about their insistence that babies are being killed after they're born.
Big Orange, who has 5 kids, has most likely never changed a single diaper or spent 5 minutes comforting a sick child, seriously needs to shut his damn mouth about abortion, pregnancy, childcare or anything to do with women's issues.
How about an actual NICU director testifying for the bill Kamala Harris voted against? ...Or stay within the comfort bubble, I guess.
https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Pierucci%20Testimony.pdf
I read this. This is in line with my experiences in the NICU, so I don't take your point. I should also add that, because the NICU in the hospital where I gave birth was understaffed, they came to me, as I was recovering from the emergency C and told me I needed to sign a release to move my critically-ill newborn to another NICU across town. Because the only things working on my were my hands, I ripped the transfer papers into shreds.
After she came home and I was fully recovered, I 'went to work' (as my Grandma would say) and raised funds to build a bigger, better NICU. It took a number of years, we tapped foundations, private wealth, had dinners and a big gala. But we did it.
One of the instruments we used was a film that was made about the situations these babies and families find themselves in. Heartbreaking.
But none of these babies, even the most ill, were killed after birth. They were given the most compassionate care, not discarded like garbage.
What is your point in posting this letter?
Let me see if I can make my point any clearer for you:
Kamala Harris was a U.S. senator.
She called it "immoral" to pass this bill.
The very thing the NICU director was advocating because she knows we need it.
"Immoral."
If, as you say, it's not happening then what's the problem in doing exactly what the doctor recommends?
What bill are you referring to? Because I went through Senator Harris's voting record in the Senate and didn't see what you're referring to.
There were two votes that might pertain. One was S109, a bill to prohibit tax payer-funded abortions. She voted 'Nay', along with the rest of the Democrats on the cloture vote. It passed 48-47.
The second was HJRES43. a joint resolution submitted by Sec. HHS dealing w/compliance with Title X. Again, Harris voted 'Nay', along with the rest of the Democrats. The vote tally was 50-50 and the VP had to break the tie.
Please let me know what bill you're referring to and I'm happy to do the research.
Again, I speak from personal experience, not some propaganda I read on right-wing websites. I have first-hand knowledge of what these families and their children go through.
Do you?
They've lost the argument and they know it. The majority of Americans support abortion. Their only option is to try and demonize a portion with hyperbole.
And the way they talk, you can tell they have no clue about the reality. They are so used to talking with the rubes in their bubble, they forget they make no sense to anyone outside of it.
"Now, if I were a very sincere person who opposed abortion due to a great love of babies, I would find that to be an incredible relief. I would celebrate such news, despite the fact that it should not be news to anybody, as it has always been very obviously illegal everywhere."
Allow me to share a passage from C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" which I find more and more relevant these days:
“Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one's first feeling, 'Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally we shall insist on seeing everything -- God and our friends and ourselves included -- as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred.”
like
Hmm, maybe I do need to read some more Lewis.
Thank you for this succint quote.
It's something that stuck in my head when I first read it and I've long used it as a kind of test for whether a person is actually upset about an alleged atrocity or if they are just wanting an excuse to rage at something or someone.
I also try to bear it in mind as a test for myself. It is far too easy to get caught up in being outraged, especially if you believe it is righteous anger. Let's admit it, righteous anger feels good. But it's also a feeling that is easy to become addicted to. You start looking for reasons to continue it. You start believing things based on little to no proof and ignoring any evidence to the contrary, because you need that next hit. Why do you think MAGA people love Trump's rallies or alt-right people having tantrums on their various media? It's because that's where they get their top-up of what to be outraged about. (This is also why the thing they are specifically yelling about shifts so often. You can only yell about something for so long before it gets stale and just doesn't give the same rush as it did before, so you alter it a bit or find a new thing to yell about)
Anyway, like I said, I try to keep that passage in mind both for how others react to news that contradicts some horrible story they are angry about and to check my own reactions.
There is a very tiny slim issue that maybe kinda sorta applies to what the idiots are saying.
A newborn can be on hospice, if they are born with medical issues that basically cannot be fixed and the child won't have any quality of life. Everything will be done to make the baby comfortable, but no extraordinary lifesaving measures will be taken.
It's not setting aside the baby to die, it's acknowledging that even if a miracle happened the kid would have a short, devastating life of unbearable pain.
It's a decision made by the parents and doctors.
I think those situations were covered in this sentence:
"That being said, there are instances in which lifesaving interventions are not the standard of care — instances in which there is no chance for survival and the interventions will cause the child pain."
Too nuanced for the Party of "this good that bad" to wade through.
Thanks Robyn.
This is correct
https://media.spoutible.com/upload/images/2024/09/1xyA3ZSEG1nmKv5G3nob_13_c1363945d51eb7467be0c7c5c30ea891_image_original.png
Ta, Robyn. Why don't these RWNJs care about all the children killed in school shootings? Nearly all those are preventable deaths.
They don't want to feed the children already born free lunch, either.
THERE IS A LAW ABOUT THIS.
They got all hysterical about doctors and moms murdering children.
So there is a law.
What they are describing is not legal in any state. It was specifically outlawed in 2002.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born-Alive_Infants_Protection_Act
Pub. L. 107–207, § 2(a), Aug. 5, 2002, 116 Stat. 926.
You can not think.
You can not reason.
You can not even google.
Just because there's a law forbidding a practice, it doesn't mean that practice is actually occurring. You could write a law forbidding the stabling of unicorns in urban neighborhoods, but no one is stabling unicorns, in neighborhoods anywhere.
The moderator said, "There is no place in the US where it is legal to murder a baby".
That was correct.
That was my point.
I have NEVER argued that I murder babies, nor eat cats, not do anything else that weird and ignorant Republicans claim that normal Dems do. I do not do any of these things.
I don't share this story much, because 1) it is LITERALLY the most painful and heartbreaking thing I have ever been through and B) it is not anyone's fucking business.
In 2007, at 19 weeks pregnant with twins (very, VERY much wanted) I went into premature labor due to an incompetent cervix. I'd had no signs or symptoms of anything wrong until I started having contractions. We were in the ER within an hour, but my cervix was already fully effaced by that time (meaning stretched thin, therefore nothing to grab hold of and sew shut, which is what is normally done for an incompetent cervix). The ultrasound showed the 'hourglass sign', meaning the amniotic sac was sagging out of the cervix. Despite all efforts, which included me being kept in a hospital bed with the head a yard lower than the feet, the situation did not improve. I started showing signs of infection. To protect my life and future fertility, the decision was made to terminate the pregnancy. I was induced, and our two children were born, alive. They died peacefully 15 minutes later, because at 19 weeks, they were not yet viable. I still don't know how I survived that grief and heartbreak. But I did, and because MY health was prioritized, I now have two amazing, living children, who make me SO PROUD, and SO HAPPY each and every day.
To each and every person who believes they know what is 'best' and 'right' in regards to women's health and reproductive choices: FUCK OFF.
NO ONE should get between a woman and her health care provider. NO ONE should make these gut-wrenching decisions except for HER.
This is what I mean about the nutjobs not understanding nuance-- not even wanting to entertain complex data that unfits their narrative. Not that this story is that nuanced, but to the lying, lazy masses it's just two many words. I can hear them saying "SEE? They were born alive and you just let them die!" It ain't nobody's fucking business, and so even talking about it is not only irrelevant, but an insult to all women. In fact, what am I even doing here?
Somehow we find strength in ourselves to move forward. Because there is no other way. I am so sorry for your loss. They're still out there waiting for you. I truly believe that.
Oh, wow, that must have been so painful for you.; every expectant mother's worst nightmare. Thank heavens you had the health care you deserved and were able to heal and now you have two awesome children. I hope we can secure that right for all women. No one should have to go through this without proper care.
I am so sorry. What a terrible experience.
Love to you.
This made me teary. I'm so sorry for the loss of your babies. Thank you for sharing your experience and I absolutely agree that they can all fuck off.
Thank you for sharing.
So many families struggle with reproductive issues that are nobody's business but their own. I've had three kids (one died fifteen years ago this week at 2, but he was born) and two of those were conceived because of fertility treatments.
I've been through multiple miscarriages with partners (including one that needed DNC) and yeah, when I was very young, an abortion with one as well. We were fortunate enough to be afforded the opportunities for them in each instance at each juncture to make the proper decision for future well-being. With Dobbs, those choices have vanished for many women and it's atrocious.
Being able to have healthy families requires that we prioritize the health of the adults that are starting those families. You cannot say you care about life when you're willing to destroy lives so that one very narrow definition (forced birth) is the end all, be all.
Being pro-life is so, so much more than trying to control women. You know who knows what a woman needs? She does. And if she wants an opinion from someone other than her care provider, she knows how to ask for one.
"Being able to have healthy families requires that we prioritize the health of the adults that are starting those families."
This. A thousand times THIS.
Such a very sad story, and yes, this is exactly why the forced birthers are so damned wrong.
I wept for you, reading this. I'm so sorry for your loss. So many people have stories like yours that the anti-choice people just refuse to acknowledge. I'm happy for your happy ending, for your living children. I would not have had my second child without a d&c to save my fertility after what they call a "missed miscarriage." But I wouldn't be able to have that procedure today in Mississippi.
I am teary eyed reading your stories. I'm so so sorry you had to endure this, but thank you for your strength in sharing it.
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. You're absolutely correct.
Robyn, you missed the obvious. Demoncrats need to sacrifice babies in their Satanic ceremonies so that they will cause PAB to spout nonsense at televised debates. Ergo, babbies get murdered after birth.
It's only insanity math.
What nonsense!! You can only cause PAB to spout nonsense at televised debates if you're wearing your special transmitter earrings.
They're not "pro-life." They are not "anti-abortion." What these organizations are are "anti-women." They oppose pre-natel care, peri-natel care and post-natel care.
They are "Forced Birthers. They force birth. with no help to the forced, because once they deliver they can all starve for all the FBers care. Because they are anti-women.
Sara Hucka-san saying that opening up more medicare options will not get more women in to see doctors. What will? I'd like to ask her. Taxi rides? Bus vouchers? Safer crosswalks? Threats or bribery? What a fekkin moron!
It should be amazing that she'll forego funds & thereby actively endanger her constituents in order to own the libs. Good thing lives aren't at stake...oh wait.
And anti infant, toddler, pre schooler, etc.
anti-empathy
My guess: they honestly think that if they repeat the same falsehood enough times, smarter people will become exhausted with refuting it and just concede the claim. This often works, so it is a strategy they have come to rely on. It really is tiresome batting away the lies and misinformation these people propagate. When you realize that somebody is going to make you refute "2 + 2 = 11" a thousand times in a row, you may well give up and just pretend to agree with them. At that point, "11" becomes the operative answer. The field is theirs.
A completely lazy media allows this bullshit.
🎯Corporate owned media has no interest in accuracy.
"if they repeat the same falsehood enough times, smarter people will become exhausted with refuting it and just concede the claim." Effectively, that's already happened, which is why they continue to repeat the falsehood. There is rarely any correction from the corporate media stenographers who "just report what was said." That's what made the debate "fact check" so remarkable. It rarely, if ever, happens.
Also, since it worked 1,000 times, that’s proof it will always work.
I'm not clear what you mean. Are you being sarcastic?
“Dannenfelser” sounds like a German word for some kind of sex fetish involving yogurt ...
Not judging tho’! ;-)
I believe that would be "DannenFelcher."
I invoke rule 34.
As a visitor, I have to say that I'm deeply impressed with the level of intellectual engagement around here
Bravi tutti, really
Molte grazie! 🙇🏻♂️
"I got better..."
I hope that someone has pointed out that the rate of post-birth infant mortality in the US has increased by THIRTEEN PER CENT since Roe v Wade was struck down. Because, yes, women who are now unable to access healthcare for non-viable pregnancies are being forced to experience the tragedy of giving birth to babies who are stillborn or unable to live outside the womb. They're not being killed - they are DYING, thanks to the GOP.
Yes, that is the actual fruit of their hellish actions.
Nationally the USA competes with nations that aren't even industrialised for those rates. It should be 3-5 per 100K. USA and Iran? 22 per 100K.
Sadly, I believe the figures are per 1k. In England, where I come from, the neonatal mortality rate (i.e., 0 to 28 days after birth) is 1.5 per 1K live births. In the US, it's now almost 2.5 times that @ 3.6 per 1K live births. And stillbirths are 70% more common in the US than in England, in part because little money and few resources are put into the measures that might prevent them. And then we come to the maternal mortality rate in the US, which is over 3 times higher than almost every other high-income country. Preventable tragedies and catastrophes are being visited upon so many Americans on a daily basis. It's outrageous and I'm frankly amazed that anyone has kids in this country.