My youngest sister fell into EST in the 1980s. She was getting all self-actualized. I needed self-actualizing myself but when she talked me into attending a weekend introductory thing, my hackles raised, perhaps because of EST's notorious withholding of bathroom breaks, although I think it was the selfy-selfy-selfy emphasis of all of it.
I didn't go back for the second day. I was happy when my sister dropped it later, to become a therapist. Remembering that room full of eager faces still makes me feel cold inside. People crave answers and direction, and they will pay through the nose, as in a lobotomy, to get them.
EST has been recyced into Landmark Forum. Couple decades ago a guy I worked with and his fiancé attended. Her dad was high up in the org. I DGAF what people do with their lives as long as it doesn't hurt others (therefore I DO GAF about US conservatives) but this dude took up our meeting time at work one day to espouse LF Bullshit... and the boss-lady endorsed him. Oh, he happened to be a very talented and good-looking guy, BTW, and troll-like boss-lady was crushed all over him. To me this was like bringing religion into the workplace. I was, and am, SO PISSED.
I think the cult adjacent lady should put a Gwyneth Paltrow cut out in the window by her doorbell and get a ring cam, then chronicle the whole thing on tik tok.
My suggestion for the Amway buddy is this: does the friend even really believe, or does the friend have a poorer sibling who’s been sucked in by this cult and now needs to bite as many willing victims as she can in order to “make her line”? Is there a possibility that she’s actually acting out of compassion for the sibling? Because I have bought a lot of shit from people I wanted to support but didn’t actually want the shit. We do weird crap for love.
Heck, these cultic-capitalist ventures would all be wildly successful if only everyone involved could sign on 687,694,355,223,408 other "partners." I think it's true that one can't succeed in dissuading people by logic in such matters since it can't be logic that drew them in. I wonder, though, if referring people in a low-key way to available documentary exposes might allow them the space to watch something lucid privately and on their own terms. Thoreau wrote that most people suffer through "lives of quiet desperation," and I suspect desperation is often the force that drives people towards these ventures: the need to get beyond the rat race and money troubles, bust out of a dull existence, and so forth. Mocking them might just make them feel that you want them to keep living the same life they have already found wanting.
I'm kind of sad to hear that Avon appears to have gone down the MLM road. I never sold it but I knew a lot of people who did, and back in the day they were not predatory. You didn't have to buy the products until you had orders for them, you were not encouraged to recruit, it was just home based sales. They didn't even have parties like Tupperware, you just got the catalogue and bought something if you wanted and didn't if you didn't.
Yes, Avon was salespeople, selling to neighbors and friends, making their money off the products they sold. Some were pushy, some did door to door, but for a long time they had sales territories wirhout overlap and while they may have bought kits to offer samples, they were making money off the products they sold. Mary Kay and other MLMs are about convincing your neighbors to sell, and that’s how you make your money - you get a cut of sales from every person you recruit to sell, and those people are required to buy starter kits, with a % of the profits from those and any products sold going to the upline.
But Avon has now moved to the more predatory model. There are still people who sell within Avon (and even other MLMs) who don’t recruit other salespeople, but there is little money to be made selling the products, and minimum orders that are required to retain status. Most of the sold products are going to new recruits and salespeople trying to retain their status. Avon used to sell mostly to people who just wanted some Skin So Soft or lipstick from the nice lady from church.
Yeah, it used to be a legit sales model. As I said, I know lots of people who sold, and made money, and didn't have pay out in advance. So it's shitty that it's changed.
I found out a month ago that they do not like it when you call the Catholic Church a pyramid scheme/land grab/home for wayward pedophiles. I thought I was going to get the crap kicked out of me by like 30 very angry Catholic dads for cracking wise in the cavernous, tacky as fuck building.
I lived with my mom the last few years of her life. We had different tastes but we would watch foohbaw. At the end she would ask questions about strategy. She was ok.
She watched a lot of TCM and PBS as well.
Except she wouldn't watch The Exorcist. I saw it when it came out. She didn't and wouldn't.
People had told her it was quite accurate to doctrine and orthodoxy.
She wasn't real religious strictly speaking, but she just didn't want to know about it.
I would tease her when it came on by saying "your movie is on tonight!"
She knew me and ignored me.
May she rest in peace and have nice chats with Halas and Lombardi.
Something that worked on me, when I was just getting into some questionable stuff was people I knew going "No" with that kinda "eww, something smells bad" look on their faces that you'd have when someone asks if you'd like some of these sheep eyeballs. They didn't actually say anything against what I was talking about. But it was enough for me to step back and wonder why they'd make that face. And THAT was enough for me to realize the whole thing was iffy.
So maybe do that. Decline, but with a "I think a little less of you just for asking" face.
In younger days I was in the company of a person who had fallen into Amway. He was nice so I agreed to read some material he had, and then discuss with him.
We came to a parting of the ways when I asked him "Who makes the money?"
"We all do" he said.
"No. Who makes the money to buy the products? If we're all in this thing nobody is working don't you see."
He couldn't respond, but was much less nice to me after that.
When I was looking for a job in a VERY shitty job market I got stuck in a meeting for a pyramid scheme. I went for a job interview and when I showed up, there were 20 other mediocre white morons sitting in there with me, listening to a different mediocre white guy tell us how much we could make selling their widgets or whatever after a “nominal investment”. When I came home, I told my dad about how weird it was and he told me it was a pyramid scheme and explained it to me. I ended up showing up to like 4 more of them looking for a job that summer and I would loudly exclaim “oh fuck, another pyramid scheme?” And walk out. Usually I’d take at least 4-5 people with me.
I had a friend who was big into MLMs. She sold Herbalife, Shaklee, Cookie Lee, Melaleuca, etc. She never made any money to cover the costs of what she spent to join. She never pressured me to buy products or join up, but she sure got mad when I called them pyramid schemes. The friendship ended not due to her MLM fervor, but because she refused to get vaccinated for Covid right after I became permanently immunocompromised. Last time I checked her social media (2 years ago), she was hawking Neora products. If we were still in contact, I know I would mention in passing that Neora was the subject of a lawsuit by the FTC for being an illegal pyramid scheme just to see her reaction.
It sounds to me like your friend's ex is also your friend, and if either of them expects you to choose, they're being a child. We meet new friends different ways, and how we meet doesn't dictate the potential quality of the friendship.
With that said, remember that work friends aren't the same as friends and you shouldn't share your secrets with a work friend until you no longer work together. Of all the warm, supportive coworkers I've had in my life, I stayed in touch with exactly two.
that's two more than me. I can think of only two ex-coworkers with whom I had enough in common to be friends, but both vanished completely upon quitting, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if neither of them remembers me fondly, I was such a mess in my twenties. It has taken decades and decades in the rock tumbler of life to wear off many of the rough edges.
Am I the only person who thinks it's a dick move to mute and unfriend the friend's ex? Breakups are never fun, but they're worse when you lose much of your friend group along with the relationship.
I don't see anything wrong with reaching out to the friend's ex for a chat, coffee date etc. She didn't do anything to deserve being cut off by you.
Unless you're a shallow, tribalistic person who organizes your friendships out of passive proximity. Which, sadly, is pretty common.
My youngest sister fell into EST in the 1980s. She was getting all self-actualized. I needed self-actualizing myself but when she talked me into attending a weekend introductory thing, my hackles raised, perhaps because of EST's notorious withholding of bathroom breaks, although I think it was the selfy-selfy-selfy emphasis of all of it.
I didn't go back for the second day. I was happy when my sister dropped it later, to become a therapist. Remembering that room full of eager faces still makes me feel cold inside. People crave answers and direction, and they will pay through the nose, as in a lobotomy, to get them.
EST has been recyced into Landmark Forum. Couple decades ago a guy I worked with and his fiancé attended. Her dad was high up in the org. I DGAF what people do with their lives as long as it doesn't hurt others (therefore I DO GAF about US conservatives) but this dude took up our meeting time at work one day to espouse LF Bullshit... and the boss-lady endorsed him. Oh, he happened to be a very talented and good-looking guy, BTW, and troll-like boss-lady was crushed all over him. To me this was like bringing religion into the workplace. I was, and am, SO PISSED.
I think the cult adjacent lady should put a Gwyneth Paltrow cut out in the window by her doorbell and get a ring cam, then chronicle the whole thing on tik tok.
My suggestion for the Amway buddy is this: does the friend even really believe, or does the friend have a poorer sibling who’s been sucked in by this cult and now needs to bite as many willing victims as she can in order to “make her line”? Is there a possibility that she’s actually acting out of compassion for the sibling? Because I have bought a lot of shit from people I wanted to support but didn’t actually want the shit. We do weird crap for love.
Ta, Sara. Cult members can rarely be separated from the cult, whether it's Amway, Arbonne, or Young Living. Wouldn't even try.
Heck, these cultic-capitalist ventures would all be wildly successful if only everyone involved could sign on 687,694,355,223,408 other "partners." I think it's true that one can't succeed in dissuading people by logic in such matters since it can't be logic that drew them in. I wonder, though, if referring people in a low-key way to available documentary exposes might allow them the space to watch something lucid privately and on their own terms. Thoreau wrote that most people suffer through "lives of quiet desperation," and I suspect desperation is often the force that drives people towards these ventures: the need to get beyond the rat race and money troubles, bust out of a dull existence, and so forth. Mocking them might just make them feel that you want them to keep living the same life they have already found wanting.
I'm kind of sad to hear that Avon appears to have gone down the MLM road. I never sold it but I knew a lot of people who did, and back in the day they were not predatory. You didn't have to buy the products until you had orders for them, you were not encouraged to recruit, it was just home based sales. They didn't even have parties like Tupperware, you just got the catalogue and bought something if you wanted and didn't if you didn't.
Plus at least some of their products were good quality.
SERIOUSLY? Avon BUILT the MLM road, that's how you got a Pink Cadillac, immortalized by Bruce Springsteen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk5cIUI6Zac
I believe that's Mary Kay cosmetics you're thinking of.
Could be. Different company, same principle.
But, NO. I distinctly remember a doorbell-ringing ad campaign, and it being the "Avon Lady" that would be at your door.
Yes, Avon was salespeople, selling to neighbors and friends, making their money off the products they sold. Some were pushy, some did door to door, but for a long time they had sales territories wirhout overlap and while they may have bought kits to offer samples, they were making money off the products they sold. Mary Kay and other MLMs are about convincing your neighbors to sell, and that’s how you make your money - you get a cut of sales from every person you recruit to sell, and those people are required to buy starter kits, with a % of the profits from those and any products sold going to the upline.
But Avon has now moved to the more predatory model. There are still people who sell within Avon (and even other MLMs) who don’t recruit other salespeople, but there is little money to be made selling the products, and minimum orders that are required to retain status. Most of the sold products are going to new recruits and salespeople trying to retain their status. Avon used to sell mostly to people who just wanted some Skin So Soft or lipstick from the nice lady from church.
Yeah, it used to be a legit sales model. As I said, I know lots of people who sold, and made money, and didn't have pay out in advance. So it's shitty that it's changed.
There's a theme song for this !
https://youtu.be/IRSey5k5t9I?si=xQX-G1uxDVqN0lct
I found out a month ago that they do not like it when you call the Catholic Church a pyramid scheme/land grab/home for wayward pedophiles. I thought I was going to get the crap kicked out of me by like 30 very angry Catholic dads for cracking wise in the cavernous, tacky as fuck building.
The Catholic Church is an organized crime ring, silly!
I’m glad you were able to get away unscathed.
I found out later that I’d just gotten COVID too, so I could have super spreader’d the whole organization while they disappeared me.
Should have taken one for the team😕
God works in mysterious ways!
Liked Goya's Exorcism.
I lived with my mom the last few years of her life. We had different tastes but we would watch foohbaw. At the end she would ask questions about strategy. She was ok.
She watched a lot of TCM and PBS as well.
Except she wouldn't watch The Exorcist. I saw it when it came out. She didn't and wouldn't.
People had told her it was quite accurate to doctrine and orthodoxy.
She wasn't real religious strictly speaking, but she just didn't want to know about it.
I would tease her when it came on by saying "your movie is on tonight!"
She knew me and ignored me.
May she rest in peace and have nice chats with Halas and Lombardi.
Something that worked on me, when I was just getting into some questionable stuff was people I knew going "No" with that kinda "eww, something smells bad" look on their faces that you'd have when someone asks if you'd like some of these sheep eyeballs. They didn't actually say anything against what I was talking about. But it was enough for me to step back and wonder why they'd make that face. And THAT was enough for me to realize the whole thing was iffy.
So maybe do that. Decline, but with a "I think a little less of you just for asking" face.
In younger days I was in the company of a person who had fallen into Amway. He was nice so I agreed to read some material he had, and then discuss with him.
We came to a parting of the ways when I asked him "Who makes the money?"
"We all do" he said.
"No. Who makes the money to buy the products? If we're all in this thing nobody is working don't you see."
He couldn't respond, but was much less nice to me after that.
When I was looking for a job in a VERY shitty job market I got stuck in a meeting for a pyramid scheme. I went for a job interview and when I showed up, there were 20 other mediocre white morons sitting in there with me, listening to a different mediocre white guy tell us how much we could make selling their widgets or whatever after a “nominal investment”. When I came home, I told my dad about how weird it was and he told me it was a pyramid scheme and explained it to me. I ended up showing up to like 4 more of them looking for a job that summer and I would loudly exclaim “oh fuck, another pyramid scheme?” And walk out. Usually I’d take at least 4-5 people with me.
I had a friend who was big into MLMs. She sold Herbalife, Shaklee, Cookie Lee, Melaleuca, etc. She never made any money to cover the costs of what she spent to join. She never pressured me to buy products or join up, but she sure got mad when I called them pyramid schemes. The friendship ended not due to her MLM fervor, but because she refused to get vaccinated for Covid right after I became permanently immunocompromised. Last time I checked her social media (2 years ago), she was hawking Neora products. If we were still in contact, I know I would mention in passing that Neora was the subject of a lawsuit by the FTC for being an illegal pyramid scheme just to see her reaction.
"our neighborhood softball league" Mmm, a good place to find closeted lesbians! Well that and the Subaru dealership!
Really?
The softball league my daughter was in they were anything but closeted.
Why would you be searching for closeted lesbians?
Not for me, just a bit of observational snark.
It sounds to me like your friend's ex is also your friend, and if either of them expects you to choose, they're being a child. We meet new friends different ways, and how we meet doesn't dictate the potential quality of the friendship.
With that said, remember that work friends aren't the same as friends and you shouldn't share your secrets with a work friend until you no longer work together. Of all the warm, supportive coworkers I've had in my life, I stayed in touch with exactly two.
that's two more than me. I can think of only two ex-coworkers with whom I had enough in common to be friends, but both vanished completely upon quitting, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if neither of them remembers me fondly, I was such a mess in my twenties. It has taken decades and decades in the rock tumbler of life to wear off many of the rough edges.
Great advice. It's a unbelievable snake pit when you fall out.
At first I thought the title was “Help Me Rescue My Pal From A Stupid Cunt!”
That works also too
Am I the only person who thinks it's a dick move to mute and unfriend the friend's ex? Breakups are never fun, but they're worse when you lose much of your friend group along with the relationship.
I don't see anything wrong with reaching out to the friend's ex for a chat, coffee date etc. She didn't do anything to deserve being cut off by you.
Unless you're a shallow, tribalistic person who organizes your friendships out of passive proximity. Which, sadly, is pretty common.
"passive proximity"
ooohh
I like that term
You aren't alone. It's one thing if they're just casual acquaintances, but that sounds like a genuine friendship.