It's all such a pathetically obvious product straight from the busy-24/7/365 smithy of the angry, paranoid American Right that one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry, except that it affects real people who aren't hurting anybody. Which is more than any honest person can say about the American Right. What our present-day "conservatives" are conserving, evidently, is their god-given mandate to visit oppression or worse upon anyone who disagrees with their fetid, imbecilic worldview. They used to be able to visit their wrath at will upon "the gays," but then most Americans -- even the Supreme Court majority a while back -- got tired of that nonsense and told them to go to hell, so now they've moved on to a more vulnerable target. They'll never stop identifying such targets. Freud suggested why a long time ago: the more we widen the "welcome circle" of our societies, the more ferocious and cruel becomes the repression of whoever is still considered to be outside that circle.
This could have the effect of barring transgender people from being able to exist in public, as it would be difficult to avoid being seen as a transgender person by a minor.
/Quote
Not only that, but it would open anyone who doesn't come across as a "typical" member of their gender to harassment. I mean, just look around at all the women who are accused as being secretly trans now. Will WV see a resurgence of bustles, corsets and codpieces now?
Gender non conforming women are routine harassed in public, generally by cis het white women, as suspected trans women. The gender policing done by men to other men is the subject of innumerable bullying nightmares. Using us queer and trans folks as the excuse to force everyone back into line isn’t new but it sure is awful!
Yes, instead of “opening” I should have said something like “creating state-sanctioned incentives” maybe. But yes, the point I was thinking of was that it’d be like TX’s abortion bounty law in giving bigots and misogynists another tool with which to harass people they don’t like.
Being a hateful religious fucknut is the real “delusion or disorder”; so maybe we should ban them from public displays of their perversion, and perhaps force a "cure" upon them. (You know: for the children.)
Since my recent trip to Czechia I've been reading and watching a lot about the history of Europe, and Central/Eastern Europe in particular. I've always hated religion... starting at age 12, but now I have a more specific disdain for it all, especially Catholicism... you know, the crusades, Vlad the Impaler and all that.
Being transgender is so difficult without the right-wing hate cult interfering in ones life. Knowing not one thing about transgenderism, gender dysphoria or the biological reasons for these conditions before putting terrible burdens on people who need understanding rather than hate is rethugs fondest dream. Mistreating vulnerable people is such a turn on for these cretins that they should all be declared a danger to humanity and committed to special mental health facilities for the criminally hateful.
Ta, Dok. The cruelty is the point, and that it's directed at the tiniest, most vulnerable minority in the country really fucking pisses me off beyond measure. Every single Republican legislator in the land should come up against a humongous blue tsunami of VOTES. We Democrats outnumber them almost everywhere. We must, must, MUST outvote them, every election, every year.
Why do "conservatives" want the government to be so deeply involved in the personal lives of citizens? I thought that "conservatives were opposed to government intrusion. Maybe they're not really "conservatives"?
By the brute power of their threats and their violence. We can see that in the behavior of so many of these jerks on the Right who keep "doxing" their opponents, calling in bomb threats to the courts and to judges, and so forth. They know they're in the minority, but they also know that civilized people "don't want any trouble." Trump is their hero because he is openly contemptuous of just about everything that makes human beings civilized, and he gives them license to be as sadistic and evil as they want to be.
My trans son is planning to move to another state, as it happens from one relatively trans-friendly state to another. But it has gotten to the point in this country where there are large swathes of it where it is not safe to live as a trans person, and to which you really don't want to move. Your rights aren't going to respected. You aren't going to have legal protections, on the contrary: you are risking legal liability for being who you are, not to mention all the vigilante violence and discrimination out there. We need national level rights for trans folk, like we have for other protected categories, not that that seems a likely prospect right now.
Yeah I was never gonna stay here long term, but I’m aiming for a state where I have basic, minimal, civil rights. And there are damned few of them. I can’t go home because they’ll torture me.
The GOP already learned that they could get away with taking away women's rights. The Federalist Society, and their paid lackeys on the SC, were never going to stop there. Women, LGBTQ+, POC, immigrants, Muslims, minority reps in positions normally reserved for the White, christofascist patriarchy, and voters were always in their sites. Be afraid. Vote like your life and liberty depend on it. Because unless you are a member of the White, christofascist, death cult patriarchy, it does.
And in reality, even if you is a member of the protected cult… er, class, they will be coming for you too, eventually, because you can never be sure that you are “white, christofascist, death cult patriarchy” enough.
I don't get it. Trans people aren't indoctrinating children to be trans, and even if they were - who cares? Like the assumptions about teens in these states passing these bills would be that makeup/cheerleading v. football costs might even out, so WHO CARES? Leave everyone alone! Someone's uterus? Not yours, who cares. Someone's hormone blockers? Not your hormones or body, who cares. Someone wearing clothes that you don't think align with their gender? Who cares.
NONE OF THIS AFFECTS YOU. Seeing a trans person will not damage you kid any more than seeing a person with a fashion sense different than yours. Your kid doesn't care!
I'm assuming a good many of them simply cannot tolerate *anyone* different from themselves--they are pathetic, weak, desperately insecure people who view every difference, whether religious, political, cultural or pigmentation, as an existential threat to themselves. They seek out *anyone* who can force the 'others' into their idea of 'normal.' They'll agree to anything or anyone who tells them they'll be 'safe,' 'vindicated,' and/or 'restored' to 'the way it should be.'
Exactly so. A liberal vision of the state would recognize that the fewer things we feel the need to police and control, the better. People who aren't harming or oppressing others should be free to live as they please. This kind of observation (basically, it approximates the "golden rule") is anathema to the predominantly religious right, so far as can tell.
It seems that people are generally very narcissistic, and so can't handle it when others do or are things they don't or aren't. Narcissists feel that everything is a reflection of them, or has to be about them. My mom, bless her heart, was one. I see it in me when, for example, I see a hairdo on a dude (I'm a dude, too) that I think is "stupid", I'm like, "dude looks like an idiot". I do see that in myself, but I don't want to go out and make the haircut illegal! My lack of understanding, or penchant for being all judgey on people, has not a single thing to do with anything beyond my own issues. ALL of this discriminatory bullshit exists only between the ears of bigots who can't separate out themselves from the "other". Do we need to spend more time teaching little kids to be self-assured, and remind them that other people do not "make" them feel a certain way? Trick question. I'm a teacher, and yes, yes we do need to do that.
Rightwingers can’t function unless they have an “other” to vilify. Someone they can blame for all of society’s ills and against whom we need to be protected. That’s how they accumulate power.
Whenever someone tells me they think abortion is murder, I always say "so don't have one" and let God punish the "murderers" in heaven.
One woman said to me "well my religion tells me that nobody should have an abortion." I replied that "my religion tells me all women should sleep with me, when are you available"? Suddenly she didn't think everyone should be forced to live by other people's religious beliefs. Go figure!
According to both Talmudic and Old Testament law, abortion is not murder, So, I ask those who are opposed to abortion on religious grounds, exactly which religion do you reference?
Evangelicals get uncomfortable if you remind them that their preachers in the '80s adopted a Catholic doctrine because it was politically convenient at the time.
Weirdly enough, the nutjob Fundamentalist sect my in-laws belong to (Thiemists) is still pro-choice because of that. They are so militantly anti-Catholic that they didn't fall for that particular bait and switch.
Trans people are the starter victims for the Grand Old Nazi Party; as a reminder the OG Nazis didn't start out by sticking Jews into the camps...they started with the Gays, Romany, anyone they considered 'mentally defective'. Oh yeah , and their political rivals in Germany.
Yes. And that "starting with," I think, wasn't a slow process, either. Once the repression and violence begins, it proceeds with astonishing rapidity because those who are not presently targeted get the message: the laws are moot and NO resistance to the state's actions will be tolerated. Imagine what would happen were Trump to get elected again and pull his dictator-for-a-day trick: all he'd have to do is "disappear" a few of his more prominent and vocal critics, and the whole country would be terrified into silence since they'd know that the laws no longer applied. Where there is no law, anything can happen to anyone, and no account need by given by the self-declared authorities. Orwell's "1984" just about sums it up.
Students of the Deutsche Studentenschaft, organized by the Nazi party, parade in front of the Institute for Sexual Research on Beethovenstraße, Berlin, on 6 May 1933.
The Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was an early private sexology research institute in Germany from 1919 to 1933. The name is variously translated as Institute of Sex Research, Institute of Sexology, Institute for Sexology or Institute for the Science of Sexuality. The Institute was a non-profit foundation situated in Tiergarten, Berlin. It was the first sexology research center in the world.[1][2][3]
There was an actual "Jews for Hitler" group, so clearly they didn't see what was coming. It was like that gay Nazi who was an early backer of Hitler. He eventually got murdered by other Nazis, but he was pretty positive he'd be OK, because he was tight with Hitler.
Howard Stern said something about the MAGAts that has always stuck with me: "the people who vote for Trump have never lived under a different form of government, and they have no idea what they're voting for." I'm not a fan of Stern's, but he was sure right about that.
That was Ernst Röhm, head of the SA the Nazi paramilitary militia, which was kind of the Proud Boys of the nazi party, the thugs that fought their street brawls.
He was gay, but he was also hugely popular among the rank and file, and so was marked for elimination during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 by Hitler and his cotierie, especially Himmler who was the head of the rival SS.
Rohm was murdered under the pretext he was plotting a coup against Hitler.
PBS had a series about the rise of the Nazi Party which was pretty fascinating; there was an enormous amount of infighting that took place in the Nazi leadership. At one point Himmler and Goering headed two separate Secret Police forces, operating their own prison camps.
It's chilling to realize that Hitler was just about as chaotic as trump, and the people around him were like the band of yahoos and freaks around trump, and they STILL damn near conquered the world.
Don't kid yourself. They knew exactly what they were voting for. They are fascists. They aren't "nice" people who just made a little mistake. All GOP voters are fascists. Hair Fuhrer actually got MORE votes in 2020 than he got in 2016. Not slagging Stern. He's just plain wrong.
"attempting to induce or exacerbate gender dysphoria..."
So, in a naked pretext for punishing trans ppl, it acknowledges the existence of gender dysphoria? I thought transphobes were still pretending that's not a thing. Have they moved on to "it exists 'cuz librals?"
Yes, I was trying to imply that transphobes think the "cure" is "snap out of it" and would not accept the medically-valid treatment of gender-affirming care, but in my snarky glibness I didn't convey the nuance.
The informed consent model of care jumps this hoop. This is not universal in the US, but rather spotty coverage exists. The WPATH model includes an endocrinologist and psychiatrist referral.
As the reich-wing isn't allowed to persecute Jews they had to find some other "others" to attack.
They will all rot in hell. Hopefully sooner than later.
It's all such a pathetically obvious product straight from the busy-24/7/365 smithy of the angry, paranoid American Right that one doesn't know whether to laugh or cry, except that it affects real people who aren't hurting anybody. Which is more than any honest person can say about the American Right. What our present-day "conservatives" are conserving, evidently, is their god-given mandate to visit oppression or worse upon anyone who disagrees with their fetid, imbecilic worldview. They used to be able to visit their wrath at will upon "the gays," but then most Americans -- even the Supreme Court majority a while back -- got tired of that nonsense and told them to go to hell, so now they've moved on to a more vulnerable target. They'll never stop identifying such targets. Freud suggested why a long time ago: the more we widen the "welcome circle" of our societies, the more ferocious and cruel becomes the repression of whoever is still considered to be outside that circle.
I love you all, but I have to leave this thread now, because it's just all too angering/depressing. Off to look at mohr kitteh pictures. Back later.
Quote/
This could have the effect of barring transgender people from being able to exist in public, as it would be difficult to avoid being seen as a transgender person by a minor.
/Quote
Not only that, but it would open anyone who doesn't come across as a "typical" member of their gender to harassment. I mean, just look around at all the women who are accused as being secretly trans now. Will WV see a resurgence of bustles, corsets and codpieces now?
Gender non conforming women are routine harassed in public, generally by cis het white women, as suspected trans women. The gender policing done by men to other men is the subject of innumerable bullying nightmares. Using us queer and trans folks as the excuse to force everyone back into line isn’t new but it sure is awful!
Yes, instead of “opening” I should have said something like “creating state-sanctioned incentives” maybe. But yes, the point I was thinking of was that it’d be like TX’s abortion bounty law in giving bigots and misogynists another tool with which to harass people they don’t like.
Yes, and who decides how "typical" you have to be?
Exactly.
Being a hateful religious fucknut is the real “delusion or disorder”; so maybe we should ban them from public displays of their perversion, and perhaps force a "cure" upon them. (You know: for the children.)
Since my recent trip to Czechia I've been reading and watching a lot about the history of Europe, and Central/Eastern Europe in particular. I've always hated religion... starting at age 12, but now I have a more specific disdain for it all, especially Catholicism... you know, the crusades, Vlad the Impaler and all that.
Being transgender is so difficult without the right-wing hate cult interfering in ones life. Knowing not one thing about transgenderism, gender dysphoria or the biological reasons for these conditions before putting terrible burdens on people who need understanding rather than hate is rethugs fondest dream. Mistreating vulnerable people is such a turn on for these cretins that they should all be declared a danger to humanity and committed to special mental health facilities for the criminally hateful.
Ta, Dok. The cruelty is the point, and that it's directed at the tiniest, most vulnerable minority in the country really fucking pisses me off beyond measure. Every single Republican legislator in the land should come up against a humongous blue tsunami of VOTES. We Democrats outnumber them almost everywhere. We must, must, MUST outvote them, every election, every year.
Why do "conservatives" want the government to be so deeply involved in the personal lives of citizens? I thought that "conservatives were opposed to government intrusion. Maybe they're not really "conservatives"?
They’re opposed to government intrusion into THEIR lives, especially when it comes to them making money. Everyone else’s life is fair game.
Which is witness to THEIR stupidity. Do you suppose they believe that somehow they will be exempt? By what means?
By the brute power of their threats and their violence. We can see that in the behavior of so many of these jerks on the Right who keep "doxing" their opponents, calling in bomb threats to the courts and to judges, and so forth. They know they're in the minority, but they also know that civilized people "don't want any trouble." Trump is their hero because he is openly contemptuous of just about everything that makes human beings civilized, and he gives them license to be as sadistic and evil as they want to be.
My trans son is planning to move to another state, as it happens from one relatively trans-friendly state to another. But it has gotten to the point in this country where there are large swathes of it where it is not safe to live as a trans person, and to which you really don't want to move. Your rights aren't going to respected. You aren't going to have legal protections, on the contrary: you are risking legal liability for being who you are, not to mention all the vigilante violence and discrimination out there. We need national level rights for trans folk, like we have for other protected categories, not that that seems a likely prospect right now.
Yeah I was never gonna stay here long term, but I’m aiming for a state where I have basic, minimal, civil rights. And there are damned few of them. I can’t go home because they’ll torture me.
Real shame is that we have to have "protected categories" All citizens should be afforded exactly the same rights
I wish I could take every single Republican politician, pile them into a gigantic barge, and fire them off into the Sun.
"Pile on endless regulations in the name of 'safety' ...”
Nah nah nah !!! Nanny state, nanny state !!!
The GOP already learned that they could get away with taking away women's rights. The Federalist Society, and their paid lackeys on the SC, were never going to stop there. Women, LGBTQ+, POC, immigrants, Muslims, minority reps in positions normally reserved for the White, christofascist patriarchy, and voters were always in their sites. Be afraid. Vote like your life and liberty depend on it. Because unless you are a member of the White, christofascist, death cult patriarchy, it does.
For sure. And "sights", fyi.
The reason they hate us Jews more than any other minority is that so many of us can pass.
And in reality, even if you is a member of the protected cult… er, class, they will be coming for you too, eventually, because you can never be sure that you are “white, christofascist, death cult patriarchy” enough.
I don't get it. Trans people aren't indoctrinating children to be trans, and even if they were - who cares? Like the assumptions about teens in these states passing these bills would be that makeup/cheerleading v. football costs might even out, so WHO CARES? Leave everyone alone! Someone's uterus? Not yours, who cares. Someone's hormone blockers? Not your hormones or body, who cares. Someone wearing clothes that you don't think align with their gender? Who cares.
NONE OF THIS AFFECTS YOU. Seeing a trans person will not damage you kid any more than seeing a person with a fashion sense different than yours. Your kid doesn't care!
I'm assuming a good many of them simply cannot tolerate *anyone* different from themselves--they are pathetic, weak, desperately insecure people who view every difference, whether religious, political, cultural or pigmentation, as an existential threat to themselves. They seek out *anyone* who can force the 'others' into their idea of 'normal.' They'll agree to anything or anyone who tells them they'll be 'safe,' 'vindicated,' and/or 'restored' to 'the way it should be.'
Fuck them all.
Exactly so. A liberal vision of the state would recognize that the fewer things we feel the need to police and control, the better. People who aren't harming or oppressing others should be free to live as they please. This kind of observation (basically, it approximates the "golden rule") is anathema to the predominantly religious right, so far as can tell.
It seems that people are generally very narcissistic, and so can't handle it when others do or are things they don't or aren't. Narcissists feel that everything is a reflection of them, or has to be about them. My mom, bless her heart, was one. I see it in me when, for example, I see a hairdo on a dude (I'm a dude, too) that I think is "stupid", I'm like, "dude looks like an idiot". I do see that in myself, but I don't want to go out and make the haircut illegal! My lack of understanding, or penchant for being all judgey on people, has not a single thing to do with anything beyond my own issues. ALL of this discriminatory bullshit exists only between the ears of bigots who can't separate out themselves from the "other". Do we need to spend more time teaching little kids to be self-assured, and remind them that other people do not "make" them feel a certain way? Trick question. I'm a teacher, and yes, yes we do need to do that.
Rightwingers can’t function unless they have an “other” to vilify. Someone they can blame for all of society’s ills and against whom we need to be protected. That’s how they accumulate power.
Whenever someone tells me they think abortion is murder, I always say "so don't have one" and let God punish the "murderers" in heaven.
One woman said to me "well my religion tells me that nobody should have an abortion." I replied that "my religion tells me all women should sleep with me, when are you available"? Suddenly she didn't think everyone should be forced to live by other people's religious beliefs. Go figure!
According to both Talmudic and Old Testament law, abortion is not murder, So, I ask those who are opposed to abortion on religious grounds, exactly which religion do you reference?
Evangelicals get uncomfortable if you remind them that their preachers in the '80s adopted a Catholic doctrine because it was politically convenient at the time.
Weirdly enough, the nutjob Fundamentalist sect my in-laws belong to (Thiemists) is still pro-choice because of that. They are so militantly anti-Catholic that they didn't fall for that particular bait and switch.
Trans people are the starter victims for the Grand Old Nazi Party; as a reminder the OG Nazis didn't start out by sticking Jews into the camps...they started with the Gays, Romany, anyone they considered 'mentally defective'. Oh yeah , and their political rivals in Germany.
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution
Yes. And that "starting with," I think, wasn't a slow process, either. Once the repression and violence begins, it proceeds with astonishing rapidity because those who are not presently targeted get the message: the laws are moot and NO resistance to the state's actions will be tolerated. Imagine what would happen were Trump to get elected again and pull his dictator-for-a-day trick: all he'd have to do is "disappear" a few of his more prominent and vocal critics, and the whole country would be terrified into silence since they'd know that the laws no longer applied. Where there is no law, anything can happen to anyone, and no account need by given by the self-declared authorities. Orwell's "1984" just about sums it up.
"First they came for the socialists. I didn't care because I wasn't a socialist" Same old song and dance
And the famous photo of the Nazi book burning happened at the world's first and only gender affirming care center.
I did not know that.
Students of the Deutsche Studentenschaft, organized by the Nazi party, parade in front of the Institute for Sexual Research on Beethovenstraße, Berlin, on 6 May 1933.
The Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was an early private sexology research institute in Germany from 1919 to 1933. The name is variously translated as Institute of Sex Research, Institute of Sexology, Institute for Sexology or Institute for the Science of Sexuality. The Institute was a non-profit foundation situated in Tiergarten, Berlin. It was the first sexology research center in the world.[1][2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft
I wrote about it on my Substack:
https://wokeaf.substack.com/p/transgender-history-that-was-never
There was an actual "Jews for Hitler" group, so clearly they didn't see what was coming. It was like that gay Nazi who was an early backer of Hitler. He eventually got murdered by other Nazis, but he was pretty positive he'd be OK, because he was tight with Hitler.
Howard Stern said something about the MAGAts that has always stuck with me: "the people who vote for Trump have never lived under a different form of government, and they have no idea what they're voting for." I'm not a fan of Stern's, but he was sure right about that.
That was Ernst Röhm, head of the SA the Nazi paramilitary militia, which was kind of the Proud Boys of the nazi party, the thugs that fought their street brawls.
He was gay, but he was also hugely popular among the rank and file, and so was marked for elimination during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934 by Hitler and his cotierie, especially Himmler who was the head of the rival SS.
Rohm was murdered under the pretext he was plotting a coup against Hitler.
PBS had a series about the rise of the Nazi Party which was pretty fascinating; there was an enormous amount of infighting that took place in the Nazi leadership. At one point Himmler and Goering headed two separate Secret Police forces, operating their own prison camps.
It's chilling to realize that Hitler was just about as chaotic as trump, and the people around him were like the band of yahoos and freaks around trump, and they STILL damn near conquered the world.
And now we have Bridgett Ziegler and Stephen Miller.
Don't kid yourself. They knew exactly what they were voting for. They are fascists. They aren't "nice" people who just made a little mistake. All GOP voters are fascists. Hair Fuhrer actually got MORE votes in 2020 than he got in 2016. Not slagging Stern. He's just plain wrong.
Yeah, they know what they want: a divine king whose will is the law and who will punish their enemies.
"attempting to induce or exacerbate gender dysphoria..."
So, in a naked pretext for punishing trans ppl, it acknowledges the existence of gender dysphoria? I thought transphobes were still pretending that's not a thing. Have they moved on to "it exists 'cuz librals?"
It exists, but it must be removed
There's no logic involved.
Oh, it only acknowledges GD enough to pretend that there's a medically-valid "cure".
From what I understand, not being trans myself, the correct treatment for gender dysphoria is..... gender affirming care.
Yes, I was trying to imply that transphobes think the "cure" is "snap out of it" and would not accept the medically-valid treatment of gender-affirming care, but in my snarky glibness I didn't convey the nuance.
Isn't a multidisciplinary team called for in the WPATH Standard of Care?
The informed consent model of care jumps this hoop. This is not universal in the US, but rather spotty coverage exists. The WPATH model includes an endocrinologist and psychiatrist referral.
It used to be required that you had to see psychiatrists before you could have your genitals changed. I'm not sure if that's still true or not.
It depends upon the surgeon. Many require such a referral to cover their back. Some do not.