There's an issue of the London Review of Books from after 9/11 with some amazing letters to the editor (including from Mary Beard) that saw where it was heading because of the arrogance, ignorance and opportunism of the Bushies. They were/are all war criminals not that that was new on the American right. I was against going into Iraq. And Afghanistan. It was a cliche about Afghanistan. Never invade Afghanistan. But they knew better. Just like their fixed ideas about the economy. Deregulate. Laissez faire. Wait for it all to explode and hope you get out first or have enough cash to wait out the carnage. Good old American exceptionalism, moral blindness and stupidity.
I believed the UN inspectors that Iran didn't have WMDs and being a natural lefty pinko commie antiwar person from way back in the 60s, I stitched a banner in response to the warmongering. I hung it on the front porch in my small southern conservative town and vowed not to take it down until the war ended. I had no idea then how long it would take. Even with a move to a new house and a new front porch, the banner stayed until it was sun-bleached and weather-worn. I retired it finally a couple of years ago, replaced by a rainbow, trans, black and brown flag. Still hoping for peace.
I was so bewildered by how sloppy the case for the war in Iraq was. They sat there and said vaguely ominous things while I wanted specifics and explanations. Where had Iraq rebuilt their weapons program? How had they hidden it from the UN weapons inspectors and, if I remember correctly, the daily aerial surveillance we ourselves performed? How had they smuggled in the materials given that they were under severe economic sanctions? Again, if I remember right, the sanctions were so strict it led to hunger being an issue. (This last part was also why I was bewildered by Cheney’s assertion that we would be greeted as liberators. I assumed that generally people aren’t happy to see military forces from the country that’s been starving their kids for a decade.). But no one seemed to be asking these fairly basic, common sense questions. And my questions were all based on things I had picked up from following the news generally! And don’t even get me started on the Bush administration’s utter lack of interest in protecting the cultural and artistic treasures of Iraq. We should have had units dedicated to protecting the museums and libraries, somewhat like they did in World War Two.
As for Phil Donahue, I associate him with my mom. She loved his show so much she went to at least one taping with a dear friend of hers. I don’t remember watching any of his shows myself, but I was mad MSNBC fired him. Especially because it seemed like he was also interested in nailing down why, exactly, we should go into Iraq. I thought then, as I think now, that one of the best ways to “support the troops” was to make sure we had excellent reasons to ask them to sacrifice themselves.
At any rate I may see if I can find archives of Donahue’s show on line. I feel I should watch some.
Ah yes, the Liberal Hawks. Slate (my online community at that time) had a big feature, "I Can't Believe I'm a Hawk," filled with these bellwether numpties and their bullshit arguments. I was the opposite, myself. "I can't believe I'm a Dove." I had a long history of supporting military action. But not this time. I was willing to support action in Iraq, to depose a brutal dictator, PROVIDED the U.N. backed it. But unilateral action was unjustifiable, Iraq was in no way a credible threat to the United States or even any local neighbors in 2002.
And oh my God, so many tried to claim opposition when it all, so predictably, went sideways. In 2004 I was an early supporter of Dean. He was against the war from the start. The only other Dem candidate I could respect was Edwards. He was vociferously pro-war, but he did not try to run away from it. Just about every other center-left figure in public life was the epitome of cowardice. We who did actually buck public opinion and fought the relentless drive to a stupid and evil war had no respect for them.
I was laid up for a year after back surgery and watched Donahue every day. I always learned a lot. He was a great interviewer. He got a bit schlocky toward the end attempting unsuccessfully to compete with the disaster the Oprah show was.
The deranged guests on Oprah that were never challenged and often promoted was a sad and even dangerous replacement for the Donahue show. He exposed the charlatans and ne’er-do-wells and often got them to do it voluntarily. None of them went on to wild success because of a Donahue appearance.
Thank you for writing this. I didn't protest in the streets but I do remember skeptically questioning and not supporting Bush 43's Iraq war. People I knew that did support it asked why. I'd point to Blix's UN weapons inspection team finding not even a trace of what Iraq was accused of producing. I'd ask them to explain how a reliably accurate team was suddenly wrong, or would make a false claim that benefited Sadam. None had an answer.
Principled stands that conflict with an enemy that the government, and most of the press, present as a full frontal assault on everything America holds dear are tough to hold. They're even tougher to convince people from the other camp to join.
I credit Mr. Donahue with providing me, a young, married, mother of four children, with the knowledge of domestic violence is never alright. I took that knowledge, embroidered it into my memory, and eventually got out of a toxic marriage, went to college, earned a dual degree in education, and eventually married the love of my life. He taught me more by watching his television show than my parents ever did by raising me.
Thank you for this opportunity, Robyn, to leave my feelings about National Pentagon Radio's war-mongering, humble braggart extraordinaire-- and general all - around clueless bint-- that "faker-Quaker" Good Ol' Scott "The Shill" Simon (***GAGGING NOW***) right...
dos to Phil DonKuahue for getting the truth out there for the world to see, even when that flew in the face of the weasels who ran his network. And kudos to you for reminding us how and why he was such a badass. Many thanks, Robyn!
AMEN! Donahue was a badass! And one of my favorite professors in college a million years ago (I'm younger than Doc but older than you) adored Studs Terkel! I was at a huge university in the late 80s-early 90s and my 2 favorite profs were amazing women who never gave me an A. B+ sure, but they challenged me (and my bred for a sorority) and made me own my voice and my ideas. I'll always admire them more than the 2 Douchebros who gave me Cs for writing in my own voice (one older and one just above my age douchebros who steered me away from my passion for writing to end up majoring in business).
Donohue story: I came back from class one day (some years ago!) to find my roommate watching "Donohue" (while lying on MY fuzzy beanbag chair...). It took me about thirty seconds to realize Donohue's guests were going off about "Dungeons and Dragons: Satan's Game!!" and quoting directly from the AD&D Player's Handbook. It took me about another thirty seconds to race to my room, grab my own copy, and back into the living room reading aloud along with the wingnut(s) on his show.
My roommate was just looking at me like "That's some spectacular dweebing, right there."
gustave flaubert said something like, "when you are writing the biography of a friend, take revenge for them." i liked coming away with the image of creepy chris matthews sporting a waistcoat full of stab wounds.
I grew up watching "The Phil Donahue Show" when it was produced in Dayton, my home town. He had started with a radio show called "Conversation Piece" for a competing outfit before he got the TV gig. He was always polite but pointed. He did not suffer fools and he always asked well-considered questions. He only became even better when he moved, first to Chicago and then, NY. He left quite a legacy in Dayton and deservedly so.
Canadian here, so didn't really have a stance on the Iraq war except that *we* should stay out of it. Which we mostly did and I'm pleased.
I was reading quite a bit of Vietnam history at the time, and it seemed like more of the same - a bunch of guys at the top who just really wanted to go to war, so put together a rationale to do so.
There's an issue of the London Review of Books from after 9/11 with some amazing letters to the editor (including from Mary Beard) that saw where it was heading because of the arrogance, ignorance and opportunism of the Bushies. They were/are all war criminals not that that was new on the American right. I was against going into Iraq. And Afghanistan. It was a cliche about Afghanistan. Never invade Afghanistan. But they knew better. Just like their fixed ideas about the economy. Deregulate. Laissez faire. Wait for it all to explode and hope you get out first or have enough cash to wait out the carnage. Good old American exceptionalism, moral blindness and stupidity.
I believed the UN inspectors that Iran didn't have WMDs and being a natural lefty pinko commie antiwar person from way back in the 60s, I stitched a banner in response to the warmongering. I hung it on the front porch in my small southern conservative town and vowed not to take it down until the war ended. I had no idea then how long it would take. Even with a move to a new house and a new front porch, the banner stayed until it was sun-bleached and weather-worn. I retired it finally a couple of years ago, replaced by a rainbow, trans, black and brown flag. Still hoping for peace.
I was so bewildered by how sloppy the case for the war in Iraq was. They sat there and said vaguely ominous things while I wanted specifics and explanations. Where had Iraq rebuilt their weapons program? How had they hidden it from the UN weapons inspectors and, if I remember correctly, the daily aerial surveillance we ourselves performed? How had they smuggled in the materials given that they were under severe economic sanctions? Again, if I remember right, the sanctions were so strict it led to hunger being an issue. (This last part was also why I was bewildered by Cheney’s assertion that we would be greeted as liberators. I assumed that generally people aren’t happy to see military forces from the country that’s been starving their kids for a decade.). But no one seemed to be asking these fairly basic, common sense questions. And my questions were all based on things I had picked up from following the news generally! And don’t even get me started on the Bush administration’s utter lack of interest in protecting the cultural and artistic treasures of Iraq. We should have had units dedicated to protecting the museums and libraries, somewhat like they did in World War Two.
As for Phil Donahue, I associate him with my mom. She loved his show so much she went to at least one taping with a dear friend of hers. I don’t remember watching any of his shows myself, but I was mad MSNBC fired him. Especially because it seemed like he was also interested in nailing down why, exactly, we should go into Iraq. I thought then, as I think now, that one of the best ways to “support the troops” was to make sure we had excellent reasons to ask them to sacrifice themselves.
At any rate I may see if I can find archives of Donahue’s show on line. I feel I should watch some.
Ah yes, the Liberal Hawks. Slate (my online community at that time) had a big feature, "I Can't Believe I'm a Hawk," filled with these bellwether numpties and their bullshit arguments. I was the opposite, myself. "I can't believe I'm a Dove." I had a long history of supporting military action. But not this time. I was willing to support action in Iraq, to depose a brutal dictator, PROVIDED the U.N. backed it. But unilateral action was unjustifiable, Iraq was in no way a credible threat to the United States or even any local neighbors in 2002.
And oh my God, so many tried to claim opposition when it all, so predictably, went sideways. In 2004 I was an early supporter of Dean. He was against the war from the start. The only other Dem candidate I could respect was Edwards. He was vociferously pro-war, but he did not try to run away from it. Just about every other center-left figure in public life was the epitome of cowardice. We who did actually buck public opinion and fought the relentless drive to a stupid and evil war had no respect for them.
I was laid up for a year after back surgery and watched Donahue every day. I always learned a lot. He was a great interviewer. He got a bit schlocky toward the end attempting unsuccessfully to compete with the disaster the Oprah show was.
The deranged guests on Oprah that were never challenged and often promoted was a sad and even dangerous replacement for the Donahue show. He exposed the charlatans and ne’er-do-wells and often got them to do it voluntarily. None of them went on to wild success because of a Donahue appearance.
MSNBC owes his memory an apology.
Thank you for writing this. I didn't protest in the streets but I do remember skeptically questioning and not supporting Bush 43's Iraq war. People I knew that did support it asked why. I'd point to Blix's UN weapons inspection team finding not even a trace of what Iraq was accused of producing. I'd ask them to explain how a reliably accurate team was suddenly wrong, or would make a false claim that benefited Sadam. None had an answer.
Principled stands that conflict with an enemy that the government, and most of the press, present as a full frontal assault on everything America holds dear are tough to hold. They're even tougher to convince people from the other camp to join.
I credit Mr. Donahue with providing me, a young, married, mother of four children, with the knowledge of domestic violence is never alright. I took that knowledge, embroidered it into my memory, and eventually got out of a toxic marriage, went to college, earned a dual degree in education, and eventually married the love of my life. He taught me more by watching his television show than my parents ever did by raising me.
Thank you for this opportunity, Robyn, to leave my feelings about National Pentagon Radio's war-mongering, humble braggart extraordinaire-- and general all - around clueless bint-- that "faker-Quaker" Good Ol' Scott "The Shill" Simon (***GAGGING NOW***) right...
...here:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/04/scott-simon-npr-the-empire/
I don't know how it became conventional wisdom that any corporate media outlet was open to dissenting opinions.
I forgot how well he could politely ask a hard question and insist on an honest answer.
dos to Phil DonKuahue for getting the truth out there for the world to see, even when that flew in the face of the weasels who ran his network. And kudos to you for reminding us how and why he was such a badass. Many thanks, Robyn!
AMEN! Donahue was a badass! And one of my favorite professors in college a million years ago (I'm younger than Doc but older than you) adored Studs Terkel! I was at a huge university in the late 80s-early 90s and my 2 favorite profs were amazing women who never gave me an A. B+ sure, but they challenged me (and my bred for a sorority) and made me own my voice and my ideas. I'll always admire them more than the 2 Douchebros who gave me Cs for writing in my own voice (one older and one just above my age douchebros who steered me away from my passion for writing to end up majoring in business).
Donohue story: I came back from class one day (some years ago!) to find my roommate watching "Donohue" (while lying on MY fuzzy beanbag chair...). It took me about thirty seconds to realize Donohue's guests were going off about "Dungeons and Dragons: Satan's Game!!" and quoting directly from the AD&D Player's Handbook. It took me about another thirty seconds to race to my room, grab my own copy, and back into the living room reading aloud along with the wingnut(s) on his show.
My roommate was just looking at me like "That's some spectacular dweebing, right there."
gustave flaubert said something like, "when you are writing the biography of a friend, take revenge for them." i liked coming away with the image of creepy chris matthews sporting a waistcoat full of stab wounds.
I grew up watching "The Phil Donahue Show" when it was produced in Dayton, my home town. He had started with a radio show called "Conversation Piece" for a competing outfit before he got the TV gig. He was always polite but pointed. He did not suffer fools and he always asked well-considered questions. He only became even better when he moved, first to Chicago and then, NY. He left quite a legacy in Dayton and deservedly so.
Canadian here, so didn't really have a stance on the Iraq war except that *we* should stay out of it. Which we mostly did and I'm pleased.
I was reading quite a bit of Vietnam history at the time, and it seemed like more of the same - a bunch of guys at the top who just really wanted to go to war, so put together a rationale to do so.
I'm old enough to remember the first TV preacher, Fulton J. Sheen, being taken off the airwaves for opposing US involvement in the Vietnam War.
Oh, and to say Canada is not backing imperialist wars... c'mon!
Canada did not back that particular imperialist war, very much. Also Vietnam. But other wars, oh yeah.