God-botherers (usually male) who want to make things more difficult for expectant mothers on religious grounds do not ever seem to change. Back in the 19th century, when relatively safe anaesthetics for women in childbirth were developed, assholes in pulpits denounced the idea, because it said in Genesis that Eve tempted Adam with the apple, and God said he would greatly increase her pain in childbirth as punishment. Therefore, it was impious to ease the pain of women in childbirth. Says so right there in scripture, hallelujah.
Fortunately (but things like that shouldn't have to depend on luck) a tough little cookie named Queen Victoria was on the English throne. Vicky had a LOT of kids. The next time she was giving birth she told the doctors attending her to give her anaesthetic and not to fucking argue. (Okay, she may not have used the F word.) The doctors gave her anaesthetic, and that ended that. The cowardly woman-hating sadists who had been ranting from their pulpits about the sin of Eve ... buttoned their lips.
Here's the thing. Six months ago my granddaughter gave birth to my third great grand baby, by C-section. It was an abortion. The baby was 25 weeks, and weighed 1 pound and 2 ounces. I won't go into the details, but the situation was dire.
She still needs oxygen and probably will for a year or so, because lungs don't like leaving the womb so early. She had, as very premature babies often do, a ventricular septal defect in her heart because that hole didn't close up when she was born, as it is supposed to do. They were able to literally patch the hole by running a tube into the heart to place a patch instead of doing open-heart surgery, which was cool.
It has been a long struggle, but she was able to leave the hospital a little less than two months after her original due date. Today she weighs ten pounds. She is only a little behind in her landmarks, given her gestational age. She appears to be a happy three-month old baby. She looks a lot like her daddy.
The thing is that my granddaughter moved to Colorado about 4 years ago to keep an eye on her mother, who has lupus and is batshit crazy (don't get me wrong. I love her mother, she is a great person--who is batshit crazy). I have missed her a lot. I fell in love with that kid when she was three years old and that has never changed.
And I can tell you that if I believed in any gods at all I would be down on my knees to which ever one it was that encouraged her to move to Colorado. Because if she had been here in Texas that little baby would have absolutely died and the chances that my granddaughter lived would not have been very good. That abortion saved both their lives. It would not have been permitted here in Texas.
P.S. Medicaid paid for all of it. Months in the NICU, the heart surgery, the supplies she needs at home. All of it.
A friend of mine has a maga dad and abortion is his only issue (very conservative Catholic family) I asked her if the woman dying from lack of care and the children they leave behind motherless bothered him - “nope - it’s all about the babies”. I can’t imagine - she loves her dad, but damn - he makes it tough. I’m always thankful that my family are 4 generations of liberals.
I know you can't logic a person out of a position they didn't logic themself into in the first place, but has he considered a scenario where his junk is endangering his life (e.g., cancer), and the only way to protect himself is to eliminate it, making him unable to procreate - would he forgo the surgery because god intends for him to father young and be the head of a household?
"...this was not an unexpected result from the anti-abortion rights end, either. They knew this was going to happen..."
And, of course, these fuckers will never face any accountability or consequences from the law - and I suspect they will also face consequences at the Judgement Day they all believe in
My OB/GYN didn't leave Georgia, but she quit the OB part of her job to become a full time gynecologist for women in their 40-50s and beyond who don't want kids any more.
She's a brilliant surgeon and I had no complications from my hysterectomy.
And, of course, because we do NOT have national health, caring for those poor babies costs up to 10K per day while they live. So you can add medical bankruptcy to the problems faces by those people. Not to mention the baby and its family's pain and distress.
Silly Robyn, don't you get it? Those babies are dead because Gawd wanted to call them into Heaven, just as it should be, not murdered in the womb by wanton sluts. You want to sue someone, sue Gawd.
One of the people in my perinatal depression group chose to carry her fetus with a fatal anomaly to term. He lived longer than expected; 11 days. Of course we supported her in her decision as much as we would the decision of a person who chose to end their pregnancy before the fetus could actually feel. I bet I wasn't the only one who contemplated being in her shoes and what we might've done. Nightmarish.
If miracles were common, they wouldn't be miracles. My sister was supposed to be in the ground 16 years ago. Every other woman with her type of cancer that her oncologists worked with at the same time is. (it was uterus related & there weren't any transmen there at the time) She's a freak of nature in the best sense, but she's still an anomaly and no one in our family, including her, would blame anyone for choosing the route of hospice & being as comfortable as possible for their last days. Even if, like her, they had a baby at home. (He's totally fine, and she's working a regular job & stuff despite her maintenance chemo)
Curious about the statistics…prior to Dobbs, was a fetus aborted because it wasn’t going to live counted as an infant mortality? Or just not counted? Because of course at least some of the increase makes sense if that number was just transported from one column to the other. Or even more so if added to one side of the equation without subtracting it from the other.
But I’d be curious whether there is an increase if you zero out “babies who weren’t going to live much past birth anyway..” That increase would really reflect the impact of other Dobbs-related factors…doctors moving out of state, lack of access to pre- and postnatal care, reluctant treatment due to fear of prosecution, etc.
Which means that the increase in mortality is at least to some extent a statistical manipulation. Some additional quantity of babies were born then died, who would otherwise not have been born at all (and thus counted) because they were aborted as fetuses. So to me it doesn’t tell the real story of the impact of Dodds. Maybe it’s a small fraction of the total increase in mortality, or maybe it’s most of the numbers. I’d like to see more details.
Of course, the pain and anguish suffered by mothers who had to carry a fetus to term which they KNEW wasn’t going to survive is not easy to quantify.
But at what point do you stop counting abortions as mortality? Do you count spontaneous abortions? Do you count it if the egg simply didn't implant properly? Do you count it if the sperm caused the egg to immediately self destruct? Do you count ectopic pregnancies where the fetus died because the mother died from the ectopic pregnancy? What if the pregnant person died in a car crash, does that count as two deaths even if the pregnant person had only been pregnant for ten seconds and nobody knew about it? Do we start autopsying everyone who dies of anything just to check if they were pregnant at the time?
You're just revisiting the question of "when does a human life start?" from another angle.
That’s all a good point, but absolutely not valid in this case. I’m just commenting on a way the statistics can be manipulated to make a point. I have no stake in how the deaths are counted, other than as a numbers nerd who wants to glean the most insight from the data.
If you delve into the linked report (of which you can only get the executive summary for free) it does seem to split out cases where the fetus likely would have died anyway. But I’ll be honest and say the terminology they use is dense to me, who has spent his life working with numbers. There’s no way an average person could glean anything coherent from reading the underlying data. So we are left with reporting which just skims the surface to make a point.
Again, as Mark Twain (is said to have) said: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.”
Important point: the pain isn't just something they dismiss. They want to inflict that pain, they want it to be as horrific as possible. They enjoy hurting (and killing) heathens for it's own sake. It's a vicarious punishment for not letting the fucking zealots control the rest of our lives. Just listen to any one of these fucks talk about God punishing the wicked, especially women.
They also want to push people to despair and the brink of suicide because people in that extremely vulnerable state are one of the only groups susceptible to Christian conversion attempts.
If the baby is born and the desperate mom has to turn to Christian charities or churches for support they'll have plenty of chances to coerce her to join up. If the mom refuses to use Christian services they'll be really screwed in a lot of areas where evangelicals have torched the social safety net, and they can call her a slut and blame her for everything.
If the baby dies, they get to blame the mom for it and get off on the suffering.
They win no matter what. In their own minds at least.
There's at least SOME men who are also being harmed. Of course fathers don't face the physical trauma of pregnancy; but they're still suffering the death of their child.
As someone who was spared the additional trauma because I could get an abortion, I can assure these ghouls that it's traumatic either way, but having some agency about how to handle devastating news like that helps. And, at least for me, that abortion was much more physically painful than childbirth was. So it's not as though I got off scot-free or anything.
This is the shit that Mr. Glass (Sam Jackson) was doing in Unbreakable.
Creating mass casualty accidents to create a "miracle" and then use that "miracle" to justify his life, upbringing, and his murderous actions and life choices.
Typically these miracles are lies. A baby may have a treatable heart condition and the religious zealot mom attributes what doctors and medical science did to God, even lying about a doctor suggesting abortion. Just like the person in a coma for a year. If they ever do “wake up” they seldom are able to leave a bed, have intellectual deficits, cannot speak understandably, and end up dying in a few months. They do not just open their eyes, say Hi mom, stand up, and walk out of the hospital. Which many parents, like the Schiavo family, thinks will happen after years in a vegetative state. Just pray more. That’s been so effective in mass shootings.
Ta, Robyn. In some fetal anomalies, the baby-who-was-forced-to-be-born lasts minutes to hours, not months.
those are the lucky ones.
Reluctant "like."
God-botherers (usually male) who want to make things more difficult for expectant mothers on religious grounds do not ever seem to change. Back in the 19th century, when relatively safe anaesthetics for women in childbirth were developed, assholes in pulpits denounced the idea, because it said in Genesis that Eve tempted Adam with the apple, and God said he would greatly increase her pain in childbirth as punishment. Therefore, it was impious to ease the pain of women in childbirth. Says so right there in scripture, hallelujah.
Fortunately (but things like that shouldn't have to depend on luck) a tough little cookie named Queen Victoria was on the English throne. Vicky had a LOT of kids. The next time she was giving birth she told the doctors attending her to give her anaesthetic and not to fucking argue. (Okay, she may not have used the F word.) The doctors gave her anaesthetic, and that ended that. The cowardly woman-hating sadists who had been ranting from their pulpits about the sin of Eve ... buttoned their lips.
It's too bad we still have 'em.
Here's the thing. Six months ago my granddaughter gave birth to my third great grand baby, by C-section. It was an abortion. The baby was 25 weeks, and weighed 1 pound and 2 ounces. I won't go into the details, but the situation was dire.
She still needs oxygen and probably will for a year or so, because lungs don't like leaving the womb so early. She had, as very premature babies often do, a ventricular septal defect in her heart because that hole didn't close up when she was born, as it is supposed to do. They were able to literally patch the hole by running a tube into the heart to place a patch instead of doing open-heart surgery, which was cool.
It has been a long struggle, but she was able to leave the hospital a little less than two months after her original due date. Today she weighs ten pounds. She is only a little behind in her landmarks, given her gestational age. She appears to be a happy three-month old baby. She looks a lot like her daddy.
The thing is that my granddaughter moved to Colorado about 4 years ago to keep an eye on her mother, who has lupus and is batshit crazy (don't get me wrong. I love her mother, she is a great person--who is batshit crazy). I have missed her a lot. I fell in love with that kid when she was three years old and that has never changed.
And I can tell you that if I believed in any gods at all I would be down on my knees to which ever one it was that encouraged her to move to Colorado. Because if she had been here in Texas that little baby would have absolutely died and the chances that my granddaughter lived would not have been very good. That abortion saved both their lives. It would not have been permitted here in Texas.
P.S. Medicaid paid for all of it. Months in the NICU, the heart surgery, the supplies she needs at home. All of it.
This is why I don't gripe about taxes.
A friend of mine has a maga dad and abortion is his only issue (very conservative Catholic family) I asked her if the woman dying from lack of care and the children they leave behind motherless bothered him - “nope - it’s all about the babies”. I can’t imagine - she loves her dad, but damn - he makes it tough. I’m always thankful that my family are 4 generations of liberals.
I know you can't logic a person out of a position they didn't logic themself into in the first place, but has he considered a scenario where his junk is endangering his life (e.g., cancer), and the only way to protect himself is to eliminate it, making him unable to procreate - would he forgo the surgery because god intends for him to father young and be the head of a household?
"...this was not an unexpected result from the anti-abortion rights end, either. They knew this was going to happen..."
And, of course, these fuckers will never face any accountability or consequences from the law - and I suspect they will also face consequences at the Judgement Day they all believe in
My OB/GYN didn't leave Georgia, but she quit the OB part of her job to become a full time gynecologist for women in their 40-50s and beyond who don't want kids any more.
She's a brilliant surgeon and I had no complications from my hysterectomy.
I'm sure Rs are cheering loudly. They think it's great 10-13 year olds give birth.
💧
ABORTIONS SAVE LIVES!
And, of course, because we do NOT have national health, caring for those poor babies costs up to 10K per day while they live. So you can add medical bankruptcy to the problems faces by those people. Not to mention the baby and its family's pain and distress.
Rs love them dumb, poor and mindless. Corporate america wants you in debt so you have to work for them.
Silly Robyn, don't you get it? Those babies are dead because Gawd wanted to call them into Heaven, just as it should be, not murdered in the womb by wanton sluts. You want to sue someone, sue Gawd.
But if she had an abortion, God would have allowed that. Checkmate RWNJs.
He's been hard to serve lately.
One of the people in my perinatal depression group chose to carry her fetus with a fatal anomaly to term. He lived longer than expected; 11 days. Of course we supported her in her decision as much as we would the decision of a person who chose to end their pregnancy before the fetus could actually feel. I bet I wasn't the only one who contemplated being in her shoes and what we might've done. Nightmarish.
If miracles were common, they wouldn't be miracles. My sister was supposed to be in the ground 16 years ago. Every other woman with her type of cancer that her oncologists worked with at the same time is. (it was uterus related & there weren't any transmen there at the time) She's a freak of nature in the best sense, but she's still an anomaly and no one in our family, including her, would blame anyone for choosing the route of hospice & being as comfortable as possible for their last days. Even if, like her, they had a baby at home. (He's totally fine, and she's working a regular job & stuff despite her maintenance chemo)
Curious about the statistics…prior to Dobbs, was a fetus aborted because it wasn’t going to live counted as an infant mortality? Or just not counted? Because of course at least some of the increase makes sense if that number was just transported from one column to the other. Or even more so if added to one side of the equation without subtracting it from the other.
But I’d be curious whether there is an increase if you zero out “babies who weren’t going to live much past birth anyway..” That increase would really reflect the impact of other Dobbs-related factors…doctors moving out of state, lack of access to pre- and postnatal care, reluctant treatment due to fear of prosecution, etc.
I think each US state, and definitely every country has different rules, but I'm pretty sure nobody counted abortions in infant mortality rates.
Which means that the increase in mortality is at least to some extent a statistical manipulation. Some additional quantity of babies were born then died, who would otherwise not have been born at all (and thus counted) because they were aborted as fetuses. So to me it doesn’t tell the real story of the impact of Dodds. Maybe it’s a small fraction of the total increase in mortality, or maybe it’s most of the numbers. I’d like to see more details.
Of course, the pain and anguish suffered by mothers who had to carry a fetus to term which they KNEW wasn’t going to survive is not easy to quantify.
But at what point do you stop counting abortions as mortality? Do you count spontaneous abortions? Do you count it if the egg simply didn't implant properly? Do you count it if the sperm caused the egg to immediately self destruct? Do you count ectopic pregnancies where the fetus died because the mother died from the ectopic pregnancy? What if the pregnant person died in a car crash, does that count as two deaths even if the pregnant person had only been pregnant for ten seconds and nobody knew about it? Do we start autopsying everyone who dies of anything just to check if they were pregnant at the time?
You're just revisiting the question of "when does a human life start?" from another angle.
That’s all a good point, but absolutely not valid in this case. I’m just commenting on a way the statistics can be manipulated to make a point. I have no stake in how the deaths are counted, other than as a numbers nerd who wants to glean the most insight from the data.
If you delve into the linked report (of which you can only get the executive summary for free) it does seem to split out cases where the fetus likely would have died anyway. But I’ll be honest and say the terminology they use is dense to me, who has spent his life working with numbers. There’s no way an average person could glean anything coherent from reading the underlying data. So we are left with reporting which just skims the surface to make a point.
Again, as Mark Twain (is said to have) said: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.”
Important point: the pain isn't just something they dismiss. They want to inflict that pain, they want it to be as horrific as possible. They enjoy hurting (and killing) heathens for it's own sake. It's a vicarious punishment for not letting the fucking zealots control the rest of our lives. Just listen to any one of these fucks talk about God punishing the wicked, especially women.
They also want to push people to despair and the brink of suicide because people in that extremely vulnerable state are one of the only groups susceptible to Christian conversion attempts.
If the baby is born and the desperate mom has to turn to Christian charities or churches for support they'll have plenty of chances to coerce her to join up. If the mom refuses to use Christian services they'll be really screwed in a lot of areas where evangelicals have torched the social safety net, and they can call her a slut and blame her for everything.
If the baby dies, they get to blame the mom for it and get off on the suffering.
They win no matter what. In their own minds at least.
Why blame maliciousness when stupidity will do?
There's no difference between willful ignorance and malice.
They've had decades to accept reality and they refuse to. They are idiots, absolutely, but framing it as just stupidity let's them off the hook.
𝘛𝘩𝘪𝘴 𝘪𝘴 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘬𝘪𝘯𝘥 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘵𝘩𝘢𝘵 𝘤𝘢𝘯 𝘤𝘢𝘶𝘴𝘦 𝘢 𝘭𝘪𝘧𝘦𝘵𝘪𝘮𝘦 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘳𝘢𝘶𝘮𝘢.
But in the brood mares, so no big whoop.
There's at least SOME men who are also being harmed. Of course fathers don't face the physical trauma of pregnancy; but they're still suffering the death of their child.
As someone who was spared the additional trauma because I could get an abortion, I can assure these ghouls that it's traumatic either way, but having some agency about how to handle devastating news like that helps. And, at least for me, that abortion was much more physically painful than childbirth was. So it's not as though I got off scot-free or anything.
That agency is what they want to destroy.
It's that whole Eve thing, isn't it? Removing any pain, whether physical or mental, is just too unbiblical for these people.
This is the shit that Mr. Glass (Sam Jackson) was doing in Unbreakable.
Creating mass casualty accidents to create a "miracle" and then use that "miracle" to justify his life, upbringing, and his murderous actions and life choices.
HE IS ALSO THE FUCKING VILLIAN of the movie
Typically these miracles are lies. A baby may have a treatable heart condition and the religious zealot mom attributes what doctors and medical science did to God, even lying about a doctor suggesting abortion. Just like the person in a coma for a year. If they ever do “wake up” they seldom are able to leave a bed, have intellectual deficits, cannot speak understandably, and end up dying in a few months. They do not just open their eyes, say Hi mom, stand up, and walk out of the hospital. Which many parents, like the Schiavo family, thinks will happen after years in a vegetative state. Just pray more. That’s been so effective in mass shootings.