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яовэят ёскэят 😘's avatar

To elaborate, on problems with his work as opposed to his personality:It is *essential* to Paul's thesis that Jesus was a flesh-and-blood human being before he was transmogrified after death: that is why we can have faith that God will do the same for all of us; Carrier's interpretation requires complete misunderstanding of everything that Paul is saying. Similarly it is essential that Paul is *not* the founder of the movement but is appealing to all the people who knew Jesus was holy even before he did.Paul's belief that the resurrected Jesus was no longer fleshly was his innovation, to make his experience of Jesus in a visionary seizure "just as good" as the immediate post-crucifixion encounters by the disciples who had known him in life. I find particularly revealing the passage where he tells the Galatians, "I know that my condition was a sore trial to you, but you treated me as if I were an angel or the Lord himself, because you knew that it was my illness which started me preaching the gospel in the first place" (his condition would appear to have been temporal-lobe epilepsy, which I had when I was younger but, as sometimes happens, grew out of: the blinding light, which I used to call the Eye of Sauron, and the commanding voice speaking enigmatically, are familiar experiences). The followers of James (who produced copious literature, more and more of which is being recovered) utterly rejected this. In the "Hebrew Matthew" (which we don't have in full, but Jerome and Epiphanius give lists of the ways in which it differed from the Greek Matthew: it lacked the "Fulfillments" material, such as the virgin-birth story and other bits where OT passages are reinterpreted as predictions of Jesus, and had a different ending) James has a fish dinner with Jesus, emphasizing that he was still an eating and drinking (and presumably pooping) human, and there is nothing about him walking up into the air, instead he just remained with the disciples forty days (and it doesn't say what happened then; presumably then he died, for good-- the Ebionites thought that him just standing up again, at all, after being crucified was miracle enough without gilding the lily).Before Christianity became a principally Gentile movement, it was crucial to the story that Jesus was a male-line heir of the Davidite royal family (and James the next in line). "Spiritualizing" this very biological genealogical assertion is one of the things I find ludicrous. Take a KJV and count how many times the word "begat" occurs, and note also how many "Darwinian" blessings (your descendants will be greatly multiplied; you will always have a man to stand before me) and curses (the bad man will have "all those who piss against a wall" cut off-- that is, the whole male line extincted, or in very bad cases "all those who piss against a wall, and all who undergo confinement" that is, all descendants of either gender). The society was utterly obsessed with family trees, and no, it was not possible for somebody to just pop up and claim to be a Davidite heir when everybody around would say "Huh? Your father and grandfather weren't." The other cases of Davidite heirs being killed are the context that Jesus has to be understood within (in particular, the murder of James was an important precipitating incident in the spiral of violence sparking the Jewish Revolt).Carrier also takes advantage of people's unrealistic expectations about ancient sources. We hardly ever get contemporary narrations about anything: we may get contemporary letters, but those tend not to explain anything at all about the background of the people or events mentioned, because the receiver of the letter already knows all that; more usually, we get chronicles written decades after the fact about events which are in danger of being forgotten. Tacitus and Suetonius writing in the 2nd century give us our first accounts of Nero's reign; Josephus gives us our first account of Herod. In this case, the interval from the crucifixion to the publication of Mark is treated as a very long time, which it just isn't: lots of people are still alive from 35 years ago, and both Rome and especially Alexandria in ~70AD had lots of Jewish inhabitants who would know all about events in Judea of the mid-30s. It would be very difficult to account for nobody saying "Huh? There was no such execution that you are talking about."

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яовэят ёскэят 😘's avatar

The text doesn't claim to be by anybody in particular (which I take as a sign of honesty: the author isn't pushing his own importance) but if you think the ascription was invented, then: why falsely attribute the book to a minor figure? From the 2nd century we get gospels attributed to Peter, and to Mary Magdalene, etc.And the tradition here is not a late one: Papias was writing c. 100AD when he describes a gospel of Mark that appears to be the text we have (he details the story of the jar of expensive ointment, for example), as opposed to his description of the "gospel of Matthew" as a collection of sayings, not a narrative like Mark, and in "Hebrew" (he probably means Aramaic laced with some Hebrew words, as in much Jewish religious literature; Papias himself is a Greek-speaker), by which he must mean "Q" as a standalone document (something we wish we had a text of); neither the third nor the fourth gospel has yet appeared at the time he was writing. As with the interval from the crucifixion to the publication of Mark, the interval from Mark to Papias describing it is so short that many people would still be alive.Also, the tradition gets support from internal textual analysis of the kind that ancient forgers just did not know how to fake. Mark is said to have gone to Italy as Peter's secretary, escaped from the "Great Fire" arrests (as Peter didn't) and to have preached in Aquileia (inland from Venice) before going to Alexandria. In the middle of Mark scholars have long noted an "Ur-Mark" in which passages are linked one to another by tag-words (a chain of "bread" references, and "salt") despite dissimilar subjects, and this is typical of long oral recitations as a mnemonic trick (Papias complains that the stories in Mark are not in proper order)-- notably, part of this underlying text appears to have been composed in Italy, since it explains the lepta (an Eastern coin) in Italian equivalents and uses "legio" rather than a Greek word for legion.We do not get the tradition that Mark had been present during at least part of the ministry until c. 170AD in the Muratorian Canon, where the second gospel is said to have been written "from what Peter told him, and from what he saw himself." This is indeed late, but: if they are making up something to bolster the authority of the book, why wouldn't they just make Mark an eyewitness of everything, instead of conceding that much of his knowledge was secondhand?

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