From a food safety and risk assessment standpoint, this isn’t about ideology. It’s about pathogen ecology.
Listeria monocytogenes is uniquely dangerous in pregnancy because it can cross the placental barrier. The maternal illness can be mild. The fetal outcome can be catastrophic.
That risk profile is precisely why pasteurization became standard in fluid milk.
Pasteurization does not meaningfully degrade protein, calcium, or core micronutrients. It does dramatically reduce pathogen load.
The trade-off is not “taste vs control.”
It’s microbial risk reduction vs perceived naturalness.
When we evaluate raw milk in QA systems, we look at:
• Environmental contamination pressure
• Milking sanitation controls
• Cold chain discipline
• Pathogen testing frequency vs probability of detection
• Population vulnerability (pregnant, elderly, immunocompromised)
Even well-run dairies cannot eliminate microbial exposure at the farm level. They can only manage it.
Pasteurization is a kill step.
Without a validated kill step, you are relying entirely on upstream control and biology is not perfectly cooperative.
This isn’t about shaming consumers.
It’s about understanding risk magnitude.
Food safety systems are built around risk reduction, not ideology.
HA the hysterical woman with her panties in a bunch because I don't agree with her blocked me from replying to her latest nasty comment.
Anyone who actually reads what I've posted would understand that I am not telling people to drink raw milk, only that I do (usually in my coffee or chai masala by the way, or cooked into my baked oatmeal), I am only pointing out that in states where raw dairy is legal there are REGULATIONS on the production and sale of it, that the product itself is not uniquely or inherently unsafe, and that there are many other commercial processed products as well as raw produce that can be contaminated with listeria and other pathogens.
Jumping to conclusions without evidence is not logical. Refusing to consider evidence is not logical. Attacking those with opinions different from yours is not logical. Read what I wrote and consider what I posted. I am not asking anyone to change their diets, just stop demonizing people who choose differently.
Americans are so gullible, whether they're eating horse wormer to cure covid, eating or smearing their faces with beef tallow, and hey, remember when the latest miracle drug was coconut oil? Adults should know better! Now it's protein, protein, protein - being pushed in a country that already consumes more than it needs. Gluten free vodka is in liquor stores. Evil gluten! Humankind has been eating wheat for thousands of years, and it's perfectly OK except for people who have celiac disease. Seed oils? Deadly! Carbs? It's ridiculous - Americans are not healthier despite all this obsessing.
I remember hearing once upon a time that the only place that it is safe to drink raw milk is while standing next to the cow it came from 1 minute ago. (And even then, not really.)
so how did humans survive before pasteurization existed? they made yogurt, kefir, clabbered milk, and many other products from milk. My own mother grew up drinking raw milk from the family cow, she lived to nearly 90, had room for all of her teeth, and perfect eyesight. I, on the other hand, did NOT grow up on a farm, was given formula instead of the breast milk (it was considered barbaric back then) and I grew up with crowded teeth and poor eyesight.
I have been using raw milk for a couple of decades now, I put it in my coffee, I might make hot chocolate with it, I'll put it on my cereal. I have fewer issues with it than I do with commercial milk which often comes from industrial operations that feed the cows food they would never eat on purpose, overcrowd them in confinement, and some operations give them hormones to force them to give more milk than is natural or healthy for them. My health improved when I began drinking it and consuming other raw dairy products like cottage cheese from the same farm I get my milk from. While I have issues related to aging and genetics I, at 69, am much healthier than many of my peers.
The Certified Raw Dairy operation I get my milk from has ALL their animals on pasture. I and others buy the more expensive A2A2 milk (from an older breed of cow that gives milk with a less allergenic protein, as opposed to the commercial industry which uses "newer" breeds that give move milk which has a more allergenic A1 protein (which may be in part why so many have trouble drinking milk even when they are not lactose intolerant). I have been to the farm. This is not possible with industrial operations.
Most also do not know the history of commercial dairy operations and why pasteurization is necessary with commercial dairy. Herds were kept in the cities in confinement and fed brewery mash and other foods not natural for them. These cows were SICK. The conditions they were confined in were filthy, the milking and bottling operations were filthy, and third parties often added (sometimes toxic) contaminants to the milk so they could make more profit.
Healthy cows fed their natural food, kept on pasture, and allowed their natural behaviors give a health product. A clean milking parlor. with clean vessels for the milk, cleaning the cow udders and equipment make for a cleaner product. Raw milk must be stored in a colder environment IMMEDIATELY after milking to keep the milk fresh. Certified Raw Dairies must test their products frequently and take immediate steps to isolate sick cows from the rest of the herd as well as to find any sources of contamination. Industrial operations have lower standards...
As I've noted elsewhere in this thread no one seems to care that more people have been sickened or have died from contaminated commercial produce and dairy contaminated AFTER pasteurization than have been confirmed sickened or killed from raw milk. Keep in mind that association does not equal causation and when a farm selling raw milk is accused of sickening someone with their product they must shut down, but should the cause of the illness be from something else there are no big press releases absolving the dairy farm.
Mark McAfee, the owner of the biggest raw dairy in CA (where you can buy raw milk in some grocery stores), made sure to send samples of his milk to an independent lab for testing when he noticed that officials trying to pin outbreaks on his product were 1. not properly storing the samples THEY took and 2. actively trying to make his product more contaminated so they could "prove" his milk was unsafe (one incident I recall him relating was that by the time the inspectors got their sample back to the lab the "contamination" was gone which is why they then began transporting the samples unrefrigerated...).
No one is trying to pasteurize bulk lettuce or spinach or take away peanuts and yet a general search (which is in my comment elsewhere) shows that people died painful deaths from contaminated produce and a peanut company CEO went to jail over his business' willful filthiness...
I never said babies should drink raw milk. I never said pregnant women should drink raw milk. I'm saying stop demonizing a FOOD instead of HOLDING PRODUCERS ACCOUNTABLE FOR KEEPING THEIR PRODUCTS SAFE. And that goes for ANY food - most outbreaks occur because of contaminated PROCESSED FOOD, or INDUSTRIALLY PRODUCED food. Listeria can contaminate chicken, lettuce, spinach, processed deli meats, and more.
As has been said elsewhere, raw milk is the ONLY food that is unfairly characterized as being inherently dangerous when humans have consumed unpasteurized dairy for thousands of years and humans are still here.
If you are interested, there is ONE food that could be classified as inherently dangerous and that is fugu sushi, made more poisonous that cyanide or arsenic because of that they eat. It takes years of training for a sushi chef to learn how to properly prepare it so they don't kill their diners.
Clean raw milk from a Certified Raw Dairy is nowhere near as dangerous.
My original comment was "I have heard that the only safe place to drink raw milk is right next to the cow (and even then not really)" - and that matches YOUR statement of "humanity has been drinking raw milk for thousands of years."
Yes, because they milked their own cows and drank it within a few hours.
And even then not really, because people still died from what we now know are food borne illnesses from the milk.
I'm gonna demonize it because I work in food and animal lab testing, and I know the gross stuff that gets into milk.
they also found ways to process it so it would last longer - yogurt, kefir, cheeses, and I recently read about how Mongolian herders make some kind of highly nutritious cookie from their mares' milk. Most traditional people did not always drink the raw milk straight from the cow (I don't either) but processed it for longevity (fermentation).
please go find where I posted, in response to a question, who certifies raw dairies in PA. Certified raw dairies are held to a much higher standard than dairies selling to bulk processors. I am much safer with those higher standards, and small farms that have direct sales are much more accountable to their customers than are big commercial dairies who never meet their customers. I wouldn't drink that commercial shit either.
“Producing raw milk takes careful planning from a facility and infrastructure standpoint,” the farm said in a statement Jan. 29. “Unfortunately, we learned this after the fact.”
"Deaths from milk contaminated after pasteurization are rare but generally involve post-processing contamination with pathogens like Listeria monocytogenes or Salmonella. While pasteurization kills pathogens, improper handling, damaged equipment, or contamination during bottling can introduce bacteria, resulting in outbreaks, hospitalizations, and deaths.
Key instances and data regarding post-pasteurization contamination:
Listeria Outbreak (2008): A Massachusetts outbreak linked to pasteurized milk caused 5 cases and 3 deaths.
Salmonella Outbreak (2004): A 2004 outbreak in Pennsylvania and New Jersey was linked to Salmonella Typhimurium in pasteurized milk, with investigations pointing to contamination occurring after the pasteurization process.
Historical Data: A review of outbreaks between 1960 and 2000 identified 12 outbreaks associated with pasteurized milk, with 7 attributed to post-pasteurization contamination.
Risk Factors: Even when milk is properly pasteurized, pathogens can be introduced via leaky pipes, contaminated equipment, or personnel, with Listeria being a major concern due to its ability to grow in refrigerated conditions.
While post-pasteurization contamination occurs, pasteurization remains a critical public health measure that has dramatically reduced milk-borne illnesses since the early 1900s. "
"Raw dairies in Pennsylvania are certified, permitted, and inspected by the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture (PDA). The PDA’s Milk Sanitation Program enforces regulations requiring sanitation inspections, regular bacteria/coliform testing, and annual veterinary herd health exams to ensure compliance.
Key details regarding raw dairy certification in PA:
Permit Requirement: Producers must obtain an annual permit from the PDA to sell raw milk.
Inspections: The PDA conducts inspections of facilities, equipment, and records.
Health Standards: Herds must be certified free from brucellosis and tuberculosis by a licensed veterinarian annually.
Testing: Raw milk must meet specific bacterial, coliform, and somatic cell count standards.
Additionally, the PA Department of Agriculture oversees the laboratory testing for these products.
Ta, Robyn. I loathe and detest milk. Formula made from cow milk made me sick as an infant. I was given soy milk formula, which was fine. However, fat babies were in fashion in the 1950s, and the ObGyn told mom I wasn't "gaining weight fast enough." I was a 15" five pound newborn; I was born to be small and stay small. My mother spent $0.75 a can to make my formula from goat milk, which I could tolerate. There are some plant "milks" I like, but I've always been of the opinion that cows' milk is for calves, not humans. Not far from the pied-à-nuage is a sign commemorating the first milk pasteurization in the state of NY. I'll never understand the likes of Joseph Mercola or Brainworm Bobby touting the "benefits" of raw milk. I think they're all nuts.
I was given a free bag of their whey protein powder and ended up throwing it out because it repeatable gave me the atomic shits so maybe some of their milk cooties made it through.
I actually am but I didn’t think whey had much if any. Most other protein powders don’t do that to me and I take lactase pills with it because I use whole milk or half&half to mix it. This stuff worked like a colonoscopy prep.
I grew up on a small farm in New Jersey in 1950's & 60s. I learned to milk our cow (her name was 'Cow Beauty') when I was 5 years old. (My father milked her before & after his day job.) My mother pasteurized the milk in a giant pot on the kitchen stove; I still remember the 2-foot long thermometer.
I am one of my parents' 7 children. My mother had plenty of other stuff to do besides sterilizing milk. It was a lot of work. It would have been a lot easier for her to just give us raw milk.
In the summer she skimmed the cream each day and set it aside & on Saturday nights we made ice cream in a hand-cranked ice cream maker with just-picked (& blanched) peaches & raspberries & strawberries. So I know all about that 'trad' stuff. Unlike RFKjr & Doctor Oz and all those other MAHA assholes, I lived it. Fuck them.
These days I pay a premium to buy 'organic, grass fed' milk because, by golly, it really does, to me, taste better than milk from cows fed grain in a feed lot. It reminds me of the taste of Cow Beauty's milk. And also, I like supporting family farmers who produce this kind of milk. It is not raw milk. It is pasteurized & tested.
There are very few scenarios in which I can imagine myself drinking raw milk.
The parents of the infant who died, apparently, from exposure in utero to pathogens in raw milk consumed by the mother should be prosecuted for reckless endangerment of a child. That may sound cruel, and it is harsh, but it is warranted, and if it saves just one other child from their parents' Dunning-Kruger foolishness, it's worth it. Prosecuting the parents would be harsh, but not cruel. If the news reports are true (and I believe they are), the parents recklessly endangered their child, and now that child is dead. Prosecute them. Let us try to put an end to this foolishness before too many more children are sacrificed on the MAHA altar.
well, first they must CONFIRM that was the source of the pathogen. the article claimed only an association, not causation. some of the the same pathogens found in milk could be found in raw chicken and elsewhere if improperly handled...
to confirm it came from the milk, the milk must be tested for the pathogen and compared to the pathogen infecting the child. if they don't match it wasn't the milk. but allegations of contaminated raw milk are not often publicly retracted should the source be found elsewhere- one raw milk producer noted that when HIS product was accused of sickening multiple children at least one of them had NEVER CONSUMED HIS PRODUCT.
True enough. Since the milk that the child consumed is presumably no longer available, it's hard to see how a case against the parents could be brought at trial. Point taken.
But hearsay anecdotal evidence that one producer of raw milk found that one of "multiple" children had not consumed his product is hardly a convincing refutation of the thesis that pasteurizing milk greatly reduces the incidence of milk-borne infections in children, which has been shown to be true in hundreds of studies conducted over a hundred years in dozens of countries.
Seatbelts and carseats for infants and children are correlated with great reductions in deaths of children in car crashes -- tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of children lived who would have died if not for the car seat that protected them. Now, I'm sure that one can find a few sad instances where a child properly harnessed in an approved car seat was killed in a crash who might have survived if they had not been in the car seat. But I don't have any interest in discussing such things with car seat skeptics — it's like arguing with flat-earthers, or people who believe that the moon is made of green cheese. I consider raw milk religionists in the same category.
I was not trying to refute anything other than the raw milk demonizers don't seem to do the same when more serious outbreaks occur with OTHER commercial products like processed meats. With these other instances, the emphasis has been (as it should be) on finding the source of product contamination and fixing THAT source of contamination. Processed meats are not inherently toxic, but somehow raw dairy is despite thousands of years of use by humans.
I am not a "raw milk religionist", I am not trying to convert people to my preferred diet (unlike veganism, which IS a diet cult, vegans use incredibly emotionally triggering arguments to make their case instead of focusing on a shared goal with meat eaters of cleaning up the industrial ag system). All I want is for people who don't use raw dairy to stop with the reflexive demonization. As you noted, regulations result in fewer deaths and injuries; IT'S THE SAME WITH RAW DAIRY.
As I've noted elsewhere in pointing out that I get my products from a Certified Raw Dairy that is held to a much higher regulatory standard than is milk produced for pasteurization.
"To be fair, there are people on the Left who are also big fans of raw milk, but the thing about us is that we don’t listen to Gwyneth Paltrow or put her in charge of our health in any capacity."
Do you mean when we have the next Democratic president, we won't all be issued free government stone vagina eggs?
Why even vote Democratic? At least the fascist deliver on their promise of violence and destruction of our communities.
Why would I not want my government issued stone vagina egg? It is the equivalent of government cheese in the '80s from Reagan. Hell, I'm sort of surprised that the proven rapist Trump hasn't sent them out with his name all over them and required women to use them at all times and allow any FBI (Federal Boobie Inspector) to demand that they be inspected for compliance with Trump's order at any time.
"Raw milk has seen a massive surge in popularity in the “MAHA movement” in the last year, thanks to the very bad advice they have been taking from Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a noted raw milk enthusiast."
Everyone does realize that "raw milk" is what Rob Kennedy calls heroine?
If you want better tasting milk without listeria, I like pasteurized but not homogenized milk. They sell local milk this way at an ice cream shop near me. The cream is at the top. I don't actually drink that much milk, but sometimes ti's fun as a treat.
Raw milk debates get framed politically.
From a food safety and risk assessment standpoint, this isn’t about ideology. It’s about pathogen ecology.
Listeria monocytogenes is uniquely dangerous in pregnancy because it can cross the placental barrier. The maternal illness can be mild. The fetal outcome can be catastrophic.
That risk profile is precisely why pasteurization became standard in fluid milk.
Pasteurization does not meaningfully degrade protein, calcium, or core micronutrients. It does dramatically reduce pathogen load.
The trade-off is not “taste vs control.”
It’s microbial risk reduction vs perceived naturalness.
When we evaluate raw milk in QA systems, we look at:
• Environmental contamination pressure
• Milking sanitation controls
• Cold chain discipline
• Pathogen testing frequency vs probability of detection
• Population vulnerability (pregnant, elderly, immunocompromised)
Even well-run dairies cannot eliminate microbial exposure at the farm level. They can only manage it.
Pasteurization is a kill step.
Without a validated kill step, you are relying entirely on upstream control and biology is not perfectly cooperative.
This isn’t about shaming consumers.
It’s about understanding risk magnitude.
Food safety systems are built around risk reduction, not ideology.
HA the hysterical woman with her panties in a bunch because I don't agree with her blocked me from replying to her latest nasty comment.
Anyone who actually reads what I've posted would understand that I am not telling people to drink raw milk, only that I do (usually in my coffee or chai masala by the way, or cooked into my baked oatmeal), I am only pointing out that in states where raw dairy is legal there are REGULATIONS on the production and sale of it, that the product itself is not uniquely or inherently unsafe, and that there are many other commercial processed products as well as raw produce that can be contaminated with listeria and other pathogens.
Jumping to conclusions without evidence is not logical. Refusing to consider evidence is not logical. Attacking those with opinions different from yours is not logical. Read what I wrote and consider what I posted. I am not asking anyone to change their diets, just stop demonizing people who choose differently.
That's what MAGAs do. Let's not become like them.
Americans are so gullible, whether they're eating horse wormer to cure covid, eating or smearing their faces with beef tallow, and hey, remember when the latest miracle drug was coconut oil? Adults should know better! Now it's protein, protein, protein - being pushed in a country that already consumes more than it needs. Gluten free vodka is in liquor stores. Evil gluten! Humankind has been eating wheat for thousands of years, and it's perfectly OK except for people who have celiac disease. Seed oils? Deadly! Carbs? It's ridiculous - Americans are not healthier despite all this obsessing.
I remember hearing once upon a time that the only place that it is safe to drink raw milk is while standing next to the cow it came from 1 minute ago. (And even then, not really.)
so how did humans survive before pasteurization existed? they made yogurt, kefir, clabbered milk, and many other products from milk. My own mother grew up drinking raw milk from the family cow, she lived to nearly 90, had room for all of her teeth, and perfect eyesight. I, on the other hand, did NOT grow up on a farm, was given formula instead of the breast milk (it was considered barbaric back then) and I grew up with crowded teeth and poor eyesight.
I have been using raw milk for a couple of decades now, I put it in my coffee, I might make hot chocolate with it, I'll put it on my cereal. I have fewer issues with it than I do with commercial milk which often comes from industrial operations that feed the cows food they would never eat on purpose, overcrowd them in confinement, and some operations give them hormones to force them to give more milk than is natural or healthy for them. My health improved when I began drinking it and consuming other raw dairy products like cottage cheese from the same farm I get my milk from. While I have issues related to aging and genetics I, at 69, am much healthier than many of my peers.
The Certified Raw Dairy operation I get my milk from has ALL their animals on pasture. I and others buy the more expensive A2A2 milk (from an older breed of cow that gives milk with a less allergenic protein, as opposed to the commercial industry which uses "newer" breeds that give move milk which has a more allergenic A1 protein (which may be in part why so many have trouble drinking milk even when they are not lactose intolerant). I have been to the farm. This is not possible with industrial operations.
Most also do not know the history of commercial dairy operations and why pasteurization is necessary with commercial dairy. Herds were kept in the cities in confinement and fed brewery mash and other foods not natural for them. These cows were SICK. The conditions they were confined in were filthy, the milking and bottling operations were filthy, and third parties often added (sometimes toxic) contaminants to the milk so they could make more profit.
Healthy cows fed their natural food, kept on pasture, and allowed their natural behaviors give a health product. A clean milking parlor. with clean vessels for the milk, cleaning the cow udders and equipment make for a cleaner product. Raw milk must be stored in a colder environment IMMEDIATELY after milking to keep the milk fresh. Certified Raw Dairies must test their products frequently and take immediate steps to isolate sick cows from the rest of the herd as well as to find any sources of contamination. Industrial operations have lower standards...
As I've noted elsewhere in this thread no one seems to care that more people have been sickened or have died from contaminated commercial produce and dairy contaminated AFTER pasteurization than have been confirmed sickened or killed from raw milk. Keep in mind that association does not equal causation and when a farm selling raw milk is accused of sickening someone with their product they must shut down, but should the cause of the illness be from something else there are no big press releases absolving the dairy farm.
Mark McAfee, the owner of the biggest raw dairy in CA (where you can buy raw milk in some grocery stores), made sure to send samples of his milk to an independent lab for testing when he noticed that officials trying to pin outbreaks on his product were 1. not properly storing the samples THEY took and 2. actively trying to make his product more contaminated so they could "prove" his milk was unsafe (one incident I recall him relating was that by the time the inspectors got their sample back to the lab the "contamination" was gone which is why they then began transporting the samples unrefrigerated...).
No one is trying to pasteurize bulk lettuce or spinach or take away peanuts and yet a general search (which is in my comment elsewhere) shows that people died painful deaths from contaminated produce and a peanut company CEO went to jail over his business' willful filthiness...
YOU are an adult and have a functioning immune system.
Babies can't eat honey either, and they shouldn't drink raw milk.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30234385/
I never said babies should drink raw milk. I never said pregnant women should drink raw milk. I'm saying stop demonizing a FOOD instead of HOLDING PRODUCERS ACCOUNTABLE FOR KEEPING THEIR PRODUCTS SAFE. And that goes for ANY food - most outbreaks occur because of contaminated PROCESSED FOOD, or INDUSTRIALLY PRODUCED food. Listeria can contaminate chicken, lettuce, spinach, processed deli meats, and more.
As has been said elsewhere, raw milk is the ONLY food that is unfairly characterized as being inherently dangerous when humans have consumed unpasteurized dairy for thousands of years and humans are still here.
If you are interested, there is ONE food that could be classified as inherently dangerous and that is fugu sushi, made more poisonous that cyanide or arsenic because of that they eat. It takes years of training for a sushi chef to learn how to properly prepare it so they don't kill their diners.
Clean raw milk from a Certified Raw Dairy is nowhere near as dangerous.
My original comment was "I have heard that the only safe place to drink raw milk is right next to the cow (and even then not really)" - and that matches YOUR statement of "humanity has been drinking raw milk for thousands of years."
Yes, because they milked their own cows and drank it within a few hours.
And even then not really, because people still died from what we now know are food borne illnesses from the milk.
I'm gonna demonize it because I work in food and animal lab testing, and I know the gross stuff that gets into milk.
they also found ways to process it so it would last longer - yogurt, kefir, cheeses, and I recently read about how Mongolian herders make some kind of highly nutritious cookie from their mares' milk. Most traditional people did not always drink the raw milk straight from the cow (I don't either) but processed it for longevity (fermentation).
please go find where I posted, in response to a question, who certifies raw dairies in PA. Certified raw dairies are held to a much higher standard than dairies selling to bulk processors. I am much safer with those higher standards, and small farms that have direct sales are much more accountable to their customers than are big commercial dairies who never meet their customers. I wouldn't drink that commercial shit either.
MAHAs can now plan for festive childrens’ funerals. Because free-dumb.
Let them drink their raw milk. With no health care for most of us, it becomes survival of the fittest
They can have their Turd Immunity then.
What a heartbreaking article in the Times. That poor woman.
Is E.Coli a nutrient?
Asking for a friend. A dead friend.
e coli also helps you digest your food.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli
“Producing raw milk takes careful planning from a facility and infrastructure standpoint,” the farm said in a statement Jan. 29. “Unfortunately, we learned this after the fact.”
Sorry we killed your kid.
You would think that would be pretty easy to learn, and that in the long process of setting their operation up they would have researched that.
Back in the day, dairy farms were actually inspected for health and safety by the Dept. of Agriculture.
still are, at least in PA where I buy raw milk from a Certified Raw Dairy... 20 + years now and I've never had an issue with that milk.
and remember that milk can be contaminated AFTER pasteurization...
Certified by who?
Oh what rubbish. I buy milk in tetra packs. And ph please, give me just one example of pasteurized milk that was "contaminated after pasteurization."
I hope the following two posts help.
overview:
"Deaths from milk contaminated after pasteurization are rare but generally involve post-processing contamination with pathogens like Listeria monocytogenes or Salmonella. While pasteurization kills pathogens, improper handling, damaged equipment, or contamination during bottling can introduce bacteria, resulting in outbreaks, hospitalizations, and deaths.
Key instances and data regarding post-pasteurization contamination:
Listeria Outbreak (2008): A Massachusetts outbreak linked to pasteurized milk caused 5 cases and 3 deaths.
Salmonella Outbreak (2004): A 2004 outbreak in Pennsylvania and New Jersey was linked to Salmonella Typhimurium in pasteurized milk, with investigations pointing to contamination occurring after the pasteurization process.
Historical Data: A review of outbreaks between 1960 and 2000 identified 12 outbreaks associated with pasteurized milk, with 7 attributed to post-pasteurization contamination.
Risk Factors: Even when milk is properly pasteurized, pathogens can be introduced via leaky pipes, contaminated equipment, or personnel, with Listeria being a major concern due to its ability to grow in refrigerated conditions.
While post-pasteurization contamination occurs, pasteurization remains a critical public health measure that has dramatically reduced milk-borne illnesses since the early 1900s. "
Whatever. What is so great about risking death by drinking raw milk? Is it worth it to you?
overview:
"Raw dairies in Pennsylvania are certified, permitted, and inspected by the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture (PDA). The PDA’s Milk Sanitation Program enforces regulations requiring sanitation inspections, regular bacteria/coliform testing, and annual veterinary herd health exams to ensure compliance.
Key details regarding raw dairy certification in PA:
Permit Requirement: Producers must obtain an annual permit from the PDA to sell raw milk.
Inspections: The PDA conducts inspections of facilities, equipment, and records.
Health Standards: Herds must be certified free from brucellosis and tuberculosis by a licensed veterinarian annually.
Testing: Raw milk must meet specific bacterial, coliform, and somatic cell count standards.
Additionally, the PA Department of Agriculture oversees the laboratory testing for these products.
Ta, Robyn. I loathe and detest milk. Formula made from cow milk made me sick as an infant. I was given soy milk formula, which was fine. However, fat babies were in fashion in the 1950s, and the ObGyn told mom I wasn't "gaining weight fast enough." I was a 15" five pound newborn; I was born to be small and stay small. My mother spent $0.75 a can to make my formula from goat milk, which I could tolerate. There are some plant "milks" I like, but I've always been of the opinion that cows' milk is for calves, not humans. Not far from the pied-à-nuage is a sign commemorating the first milk pasteurization in the state of NY. I'll never understand the likes of Joseph Mercola or Brainworm Bobby touting the "benefits" of raw milk. I think they're all nuts.
I remember when "infant formula" was canned evaporated milk with added corn syrup.
I was given a free bag of their whey protein powder and ended up throwing it out because it repeatable gave me the atomic shits so maybe some of their milk cooties made it through.
Whey is loaded with lactose. You're probably lactose intolerant.
I actually am but I didn’t think whey had much if any. Most other protein powders don’t do that to me and I take lactase pills with it because I use whole milk or half&half to mix it. This stuff worked like a colonoscopy prep.
Also, If women are charged with murder after suffering a miscarriage then I don't see why this mother can't also face murder charges..
I grew up on a small farm in New Jersey in 1950's & 60s. I learned to milk our cow (her name was 'Cow Beauty') when I was 5 years old. (My father milked her before & after his day job.) My mother pasteurized the milk in a giant pot on the kitchen stove; I still remember the 2-foot long thermometer.
I am one of my parents' 7 children. My mother had plenty of other stuff to do besides sterilizing milk. It was a lot of work. It would have been a lot easier for her to just give us raw milk.
In the summer she skimmed the cream each day and set it aside & on Saturday nights we made ice cream in a hand-cranked ice cream maker with just-picked (& blanched) peaches & raspberries & strawberries. So I know all about that 'trad' stuff. Unlike RFKjr & Doctor Oz and all those other MAHA assholes, I lived it. Fuck them.
These days I pay a premium to buy 'organic, grass fed' milk because, by golly, it really does, to me, taste better than milk from cows fed grain in a feed lot. It reminds me of the taste of Cow Beauty's milk. And also, I like supporting family farmers who produce this kind of milk. It is not raw milk. It is pasteurized & tested.
There are very few scenarios in which I can imagine myself drinking raw milk.
The parents of the infant who died, apparently, from exposure in utero to pathogens in raw milk consumed by the mother should be prosecuted for reckless endangerment of a child. That may sound cruel, and it is harsh, but it is warranted, and if it saves just one other child from their parents' Dunning-Kruger foolishness, it's worth it. Prosecuting the parents would be harsh, but not cruel. If the news reports are true (and I believe they are), the parents recklessly endangered their child, and now that child is dead. Prosecute them. Let us try to put an end to this foolishness before too many more children are sacrificed on the MAHA altar.
well, first they must CONFIRM that was the source of the pathogen. the article claimed only an association, not causation. some of the the same pathogens found in milk could be found in raw chicken and elsewhere if improperly handled...
to confirm it came from the milk, the milk must be tested for the pathogen and compared to the pathogen infecting the child. if they don't match it wasn't the milk. but allegations of contaminated raw milk are not often publicly retracted should the source be found elsewhere- one raw milk producer noted that when HIS product was accused of sickening multiple children at least one of them had NEVER CONSUMED HIS PRODUCT.
True enough. Since the milk that the child consumed is presumably no longer available, it's hard to see how a case against the parents could be brought at trial. Point taken.
But hearsay anecdotal evidence that one producer of raw milk found that one of "multiple" children had not consumed his product is hardly a convincing refutation of the thesis that pasteurizing milk greatly reduces the incidence of milk-borne infections in children, which has been shown to be true in hundreds of studies conducted over a hundred years in dozens of countries.
Seatbelts and carseats for infants and children are correlated with great reductions in deaths of children in car crashes -- tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of children lived who would have died if not for the car seat that protected them. Now, I'm sure that one can find a few sad instances where a child properly harnessed in an approved car seat was killed in a crash who might have survived if they had not been in the car seat. But I don't have any interest in discussing such things with car seat skeptics — it's like arguing with flat-earthers, or people who believe that the moon is made of green cheese. I consider raw milk religionists in the same category.
I was not trying to refute anything other than the raw milk demonizers don't seem to do the same when more serious outbreaks occur with OTHER commercial products like processed meats. With these other instances, the emphasis has been (as it should be) on finding the source of product contamination and fixing THAT source of contamination. Processed meats are not inherently toxic, but somehow raw dairy is despite thousands of years of use by humans.
I am not a "raw milk religionist", I am not trying to convert people to my preferred diet (unlike veganism, which IS a diet cult, vegans use incredibly emotionally triggering arguments to make their case instead of focusing on a shared goal with meat eaters of cleaning up the industrial ag system). All I want is for people who don't use raw dairy to stop with the reflexive demonization. As you noted, regulations result in fewer deaths and injuries; IT'S THE SAME WITH RAW DAIRY.
As I've noted elsewhere in pointing out that I get my products from a Certified Raw Dairy that is held to a much higher regulatory standard than is milk produced for pasteurization.
Thank you for conducting a respectful discussion.
"To be fair, there are people on the Left who are also big fans of raw milk, but the thing about us is that we don’t listen to Gwyneth Paltrow or put her in charge of our health in any capacity."
Do you mean when we have the next Democratic president, we won't all be issued free government stone vagina eggs?
Why even vote Democratic? At least the fascist deliver on their promise of violence and destruction of our communities.
Lionel, do you personally need a "stone vagina egg"?
Why would I not want my government issued stone vagina egg? It is the equivalent of government cheese in the '80s from Reagan. Hell, I'm sort of surprised that the proven rapist Trump hasn't sent them out with his name all over them and required women to use them at all times and allow any FBI (Federal Boobie Inspector) to demand that they be inspected for compliance with Trump's order at any time.
I'm presuming that you don't own a vagina.
"Raw milk has seen a massive surge in popularity in the “MAHA movement” in the last year, thanks to the very bad advice they have been taking from Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a noted raw milk enthusiast."
Everyone does realize that "raw milk" is what Rob Kennedy calls heroine?
If you want better tasting milk without listeria, I like pasteurized but not homogenized milk. They sell local milk this way at an ice cream shop near me. The cream is at the top. I don't actually drink that much milk, but sometimes ti's fun as a treat.