Hey Robyn, I hope you are having a great day. I read your article and wanted to talk about a few points in love. First of all, as a slightly conservative Christian myself, I want to say that I believe that Trump does undermine the message of Jesus Christ with a lot of his actions. Secondly, God does not support any type of unjust discrimination. However, I want to say that I do believe that there is some truth in conservative moments today - essentially, the Bible does tell Christians to "go and make disciples of all the nations". Unfortunately, this often gets conflated with politics and extremism, leading to things like the MAGA movement. The more important question, then, is about God (and Jesus). I have one question for everyone: What do you think about God (and Jesus)?
What I don't get is what the end game here is. If these young men aspire to be traditional breadwinners with a stay-at-home wife who is completely dependent on him, they're going to need to earn a lot of money. The large majority of households now need two income earners. And if you actually want to buy a house and have children, that's even more out of reach for many Americans.
I wonder if they want the traditional gender role benefits (get to be the decision maker, don't have to be a primary caregiver for the kids or help out around the house, wife is obedient and subservient) BUT they expect the wife will also be working and earning money, while doing the majority of the childcare and housekeeping.
Because, uh, I can see why young women are taking a hard pass on that.
Actually, Aileen, what you describe in your second paragraph is exactly what some evangelical Baptist sects preach. In the early '80s, my brother converted to that craziness, a year or so after getting married. Long story, but post-conversion, his wife still had to work and still had to do all the traditional wife things (except my brother didn't want kids). His church said she couldn't wear make-up, couldn't wear slacks, and had to quit smoking. On top of all that, she had to hand her paychecks over to my brother. How did it end? He left her because she wasn't "worthy." His church frowned on divorce, but he said he'd take the hit because he didn’t want to be with her anymore.
Even though he's my brother, I have to say he's done a number of things I deplore, many of them supposedly in perfect accord with his religion. I see them as hypocritical, but what do I know? I'm just a pagan.
"I wonder if they want the traditional gender role benefits (get to be the decision maker, don't have to be a primary caregiver for the kids or help out around the house, wife is obedient and subservient) BUT they expect the wife will also be working and earning money, while doing the majority of the childcare and housekeeping."
Yes, I can tell you from experience that is exactly what they expect. Women were coming home from work and doing a "second shift" of unpaid labor at home. It wasn't just me and my friends who were experiencing this, we were also reading articles about this same "second shift" phenomenon occurring all over the country. Every female friend I knew who was married was experiencing this. Their husbands expected them to be "grateful" for being "allowed" to work outside the home (never mind that it was absolutely necessary in order to maintain the lifestyle these men were accustomed to) as long as the wives got their "other work" (child care, housework, etc) done as well. It was maddening.
I actually heard, in the early aughts, the pastor of my hometown church say numerous times that women should not work outside the home because it "didn't lead to a Godly household that was pleasing to the Lord and his ordained plan for the family." I don't know what planet this man hailed from, but it wasn't planet earth where the rest of us lived.
That probably just makes it worse, the church telling the congregation women "shouldn't" work outside the home when it's basically an economic necessity these days. It will make the men more resentful and defensive because it implies they're not able to properly provide for their families on their own. And if they take steps toward equal parenting and housekeeping, it's demeaning because that's women's work. It will make women feel guilty and shoulder all the domestic responsibilities they're "supposed" to be doing according to the church in addition to working outside of the home.
" Conservatism, for the most part, requires religion and makes very little sense without it. Social conservatism in particular."
there it is...I'd never actually framed it like that, but this is it ENTIRELY. ***Conservatism makes no sense without religion*** and that's why there CAN'T be one without the OTHER
Some years ago, maybe pre-gamergate, DKos was convinced that the republicans would all die off and we'd live in a saner society. Jokes on them. Sexism is way stronger force than actually having fun, consensual sex.
Fun consensual sex...I guess it just doesn't convey the same feeling of power for men as a date-rape-drugged woman who is putty in their hands. Sick but true, I'm afraid.
These young men who have embraced the male supremacist mindset are going to have significant difficulty finding girlfriends and wives. Women aren't interested in being June Cleaver or living as a stepford wife. There are more women attending college than men. The women aren't about to give that up for a life of economic and intellectual powerlessness.
Women were never that interested in being June Cleaver, but the laws made it mighty hard to find a different path. That's what second wave feminism was about. That's what we are at risk of losing. First. Then they roll back first wave feminism that got women the right to vote.
I'm afraid that has already happened. Back when I got married, if you didn't take your husband's name, things could get awfully tricky for you, legal-wise and bureaucracy-wise. Now, decades later, I will have to get a passport in order to vote in the next election because the laws have been changed to bar married women from voting if their current name does not match the name on their birth certificate. Women who followed the old rules of marriages are now being penalized for following those rules. The patriarchal system is literally constantly re-rigged so that women can't win for losing, unless they are very very lucky and have the time and resources to do things like get passports in order to vote. The laws have always made it hard for women to find anything other than the June Cleaver path.
In most things there is a "normal distribution", I'm sure there are some real "Churchy" Ladies out there. It is just on average the young women of that generation have moved away. This is a total reversal from what was the norm, but back than people still got married.
I've ranted before, the truth about MAGA and especially its relatively young "alt right" branch is that they are secularized conservatives, and following the pattern of the actual N@zis, the lack of grounding in tradition makes them more radical rather than moderate. Any outward turn toward established religion doesn't really need to break from this rule. Mature conservative preachers and theologians are still going to tell them that actually, women have never been denied the Biblical rights at a minimum to refuse a marriage, to separate from their husbands and to abstain from sex at any given time. The self described converts will respond by seeking out those shallow or self serving enough to say what they want to hear.
Hey Robyn, you’re right about a lot of this Fauxvangelical nonsense and the desperate bargain of the pedophilia-infested Catholic Church to partner there, so that the anti-choice message was first trumpeted. But, honestly, there needs RIGHT NOW to be a campaign from the progressive left (and fuck the right-wing “centrists” that Bill Clinton’s “New Democrats” created, but I digress), a campaign that says, “Look, desperate incel white guys…if you want to have a financially successful life, the path forward is NOT to breed kids, have a trad, non-wage earning wife, because the FUCKING MATH DOES NOT WORK! Less women in the workforce, less immigrant labor in the workforce, and enjoy your 3-shift workday, laboring for anti-labor oligarchs who don’t give a shit about you.
The big question is this: when is just ONE overcompensated, faux-entitled billionaire going to embrace a union? Just imagine how the desperately lonely and needy fElon Musk would benefit from embracing workers’ rights, or how much better that douchebag Bezos would sleep, knowing that their works were fairly compensated, content, and motivated…both of them would remain, arguably, just as rich, and infinitely more revered.
One of them needs to do it, but sincerely, I suspect their warped, encapsulated world view discourages it at all cost. Who is going to be the hero (heroine? Mackenzie Scott, perchance?) who takes the small risk of trying it? If none of them does, the path is increasingly downhill, especially with an administration which has decided instead to indict state judges, congresspersons and city mayors.
Word to young neoreligious incel males. This is a definite creepy vibe. Girls will run. You’ll have to use a knothole in a tree. Hope it’s full of bees.
Hey Robyn, I hope you are having a great day. I read your article and wanted to talk about a few points in love. First of all, as a slightly conservative Christian myself, I want to say that I believe that Trump does undermine the message of Jesus Christ with a lot of his actions. Secondly, God does not support any type of unjust discrimination. However, I want to say that I do believe that there is some truth in conservative moments today - essentially, the Bible does tell Christians to "go and make disciples of all the nations". Unfortunately, this often gets conflated with politics and extremism, leading to things like the MAGA movement. The more important question, then, is about God (and Jesus). I have one question for everyone: What do you think about God (and Jesus)?
What I don't get is what the end game here is. If these young men aspire to be traditional breadwinners with a stay-at-home wife who is completely dependent on him, they're going to need to earn a lot of money. The large majority of households now need two income earners. And if you actually want to buy a house and have children, that's even more out of reach for many Americans.
I wonder if they want the traditional gender role benefits (get to be the decision maker, don't have to be a primary caregiver for the kids or help out around the house, wife is obedient and subservient) BUT they expect the wife will also be working and earning money, while doing the majority of the childcare and housekeeping.
Because, uh, I can see why young women are taking a hard pass on that.
Actually, Aileen, what you describe in your second paragraph is exactly what some evangelical Baptist sects preach. In the early '80s, my brother converted to that craziness, a year or so after getting married. Long story, but post-conversion, his wife still had to work and still had to do all the traditional wife things (except my brother didn't want kids). His church said she couldn't wear make-up, couldn't wear slacks, and had to quit smoking. On top of all that, she had to hand her paychecks over to my brother. How did it end? He left her because she wasn't "worthy." His church frowned on divorce, but he said he'd take the hit because he didn’t want to be with her anymore.
Ugh, sounds like a swell guy.
Even though he's my brother, I have to say he's done a number of things I deplore, many of them supposedly in perfect accord with his religion. I see them as hypocritical, but what do I know? I'm just a pagan.
"I wonder if they want the traditional gender role benefits (get to be the decision maker, don't have to be a primary caregiver for the kids or help out around the house, wife is obedient and subservient) BUT they expect the wife will also be working and earning money, while doing the majority of the childcare and housekeeping."
Yes, I can tell you from experience that is exactly what they expect. Women were coming home from work and doing a "second shift" of unpaid labor at home. It wasn't just me and my friends who were experiencing this, we were also reading articles about this same "second shift" phenomenon occurring all over the country. Every female friend I knew who was married was experiencing this. Their husbands expected them to be "grateful" for being "allowed" to work outside the home (never mind that it was absolutely necessary in order to maintain the lifestyle these men were accustomed to) as long as the wives got their "other work" (child care, housework, etc) done as well. It was maddening.
I actually heard, in the early aughts, the pastor of my hometown church say numerous times that women should not work outside the home because it "didn't lead to a Godly household that was pleasing to the Lord and his ordained plan for the family." I don't know what planet this man hailed from, but it wasn't planet earth where the rest of us lived.
That probably just makes it worse, the church telling the congregation women "shouldn't" work outside the home when it's basically an economic necessity these days. It will make the men more resentful and defensive because it implies they're not able to properly provide for their families on their own. And if they take steps toward equal parenting and housekeeping, it's demeaning because that's women's work. It will make women feel guilty and shoulder all the domestic responsibilities they're "supposed" to be doing according to the church in addition to working outside of the home.
How come they're wearing yamulkes?
Just, exactly how old is Ernest Borgnine?
He be dead for almost 13 years.
But he was the third monk in this painting, made in the 1884, I think.
They aren't out there becoming Methodists and Episcopalians? Thank you!
What does "religious" even mean? Are they actually going to church? Or is this just augmenting their bigotry with a few "the Bible says so" nostrums?
Yes.
" Conservatism, for the most part, requires religion and makes very little sense without it. Social conservatism in particular."
there it is...I'd never actually framed it like that, but this is it ENTIRELY. ***Conservatism makes no sense without religion*** and that's why there CAN'T be one without the OTHER
First they brain washed the old men
Now they will brainwash the young men.
What do the men of either demographic who refuse to be brainwashed have in common? Not woman hating assholes.
My shocked face is on.
Some years ago, maybe pre-gamergate, DKos was convinced that the republicans would all die off and we'd live in a saner society. Jokes on them. Sexism is way stronger force than actually having fun, consensual sex.
Fun consensual sex...I guess it just doesn't convey the same feeling of power for men as a date-rape-drugged woman who is putty in their hands. Sick but true, I'm afraid.
While I'm not Gen "Z" I am more religious than Mrs. Goon, as a Roman Catholic I am forced to shake my head at her pagan practice of Methodism.
These young men who have embraced the male supremacist mindset are going to have significant difficulty finding girlfriends and wives. Women aren't interested in being June Cleaver or living as a stepford wife. There are more women attending college than men. The women aren't about to give that up for a life of economic and intellectual powerlessness.
The stepford wives trope is currently being codified into law. And that is terrifying.
Women were never that interested in being June Cleaver, but the laws made it mighty hard to find a different path. That's what second wave feminism was about. That's what we are at risk of losing. First. Then they roll back first wave feminism that got women the right to vote.
I'm afraid that has already happened. Back when I got married, if you didn't take your husband's name, things could get awfully tricky for you, legal-wise and bureaucracy-wise. Now, decades later, I will have to get a passport in order to vote in the next election because the laws have been changed to bar married women from voting if their current name does not match the name on their birth certificate. Women who followed the old rules of marriages are now being penalized for following those rules. The patriarchal system is literally constantly re-rigged so that women can't win for losing, unless they are very very lucky and have the time and resources to do things like get passports in order to vote. The laws have always made it hard for women to find anything other than the June Cleaver path.
In most things there is a "normal distribution", I'm sure there are some real "Churchy" Ladies out there. It is just on average the young women of that generation have moved away. This is a total reversal from what was the norm, but back than people still got married.
I've ranted before, the truth about MAGA and especially its relatively young "alt right" branch is that they are secularized conservatives, and following the pattern of the actual N@zis, the lack of grounding in tradition makes them more radical rather than moderate. Any outward turn toward established religion doesn't really need to break from this rule. Mature conservative preachers and theologians are still going to tell them that actually, women have never been denied the Biblical rights at a minimum to refuse a marriage, to separate from their husbands and to abstain from sex at any given time. The self described converts will respond by seeking out those shallow or self serving enough to say what they want to hear.
I didn't know that Ernest Borgnine had been a monk, but there he is in the picture, third one from the left.
Jesus is a big tent guy -- as long as you're willing to squeeze in under the folds of his robe.
As an old feminist, this just makes me feel tired. Well, a lot of stuff does, but this shit makes my spirit tired.
Makes my old spirit want to kick ASSholes.
Yeah, most days I get pissed 😡. Today this shit is too much.
Sorry to hear it; I've had those days as well.
Me too. It seems like we have been fighting this same bullshit my entire life. It keeps coming back like the many-headed Hydra.
Hey Robyn, you’re right about a lot of this Fauxvangelical nonsense and the desperate bargain of the pedophilia-infested Catholic Church to partner there, so that the anti-choice message was first trumpeted. But, honestly, there needs RIGHT NOW to be a campaign from the progressive left (and fuck the right-wing “centrists” that Bill Clinton’s “New Democrats” created, but I digress), a campaign that says, “Look, desperate incel white guys…if you want to have a financially successful life, the path forward is NOT to breed kids, have a trad, non-wage earning wife, because the FUCKING MATH DOES NOT WORK! Less women in the workforce, less immigrant labor in the workforce, and enjoy your 3-shift workday, laboring for anti-labor oligarchs who don’t give a shit about you.
The big question is this: when is just ONE overcompensated, faux-entitled billionaire going to embrace a union? Just imagine how the desperately lonely and needy fElon Musk would benefit from embracing workers’ rights, or how much better that douchebag Bezos would sleep, knowing that their works were fairly compensated, content, and motivated…both of them would remain, arguably, just as rich, and infinitely more revered.
One of them needs to do it, but sincerely, I suspect their warped, encapsulated world view discourages it at all cost. Who is going to be the hero (heroine? Mackenzie Scott, perchance?) who takes the small risk of trying it? If none of them does, the path is increasingly downhill, especially with an administration which has decided instead to indict state judges, congresspersons and city mayors.
I’m just thinkin’…and sayin’.
Word to young neoreligious incel males. This is a definite creepy vibe. Girls will run. You’ll have to use a knothole in a tree. Hope it’s full of bees.
Make that wasps or murder hornets, and I'm in. I'd pay to watch that.