I have a suggestion: Set up reeducation programs for Boeing management. Purge all the RONA culture brought to the company by the Jack Welch clones, including the ones from McD. Stonecipher, known as Stonesphincter, was a particularly nasty piece of work. By insisting on a development budget of no more than $6 bn, he caused the 787 to cost over $30 bn to develop. Historical information would have indicated a $15 bn development cost.
If the door plug had landed in my yard, I would have announced I found it on Ebay. I have a friend who collects all kinds of airline crap. I bet he knows someone who would pay a fortune for the door plug. That would teach Alaska Airlines to have given me that incredibly crappy sandwich for lunch in 2005.
The thing to bear in mind is that Boeing is far and away the largest exporter of goods in the US. It's not even close. They do more to equalize our trade balances with the rest of the world with any other company.
So saying they "shouldn't be in the plane business" -- a business they turned into the biggest engineering legend in human history over the course of 80 years -- is a tad fiip. The entire US economy NEEDS Boeing to work. The reasons this is happening are well-understood. Boeing's decline is yet another bitter fruit of corporatism, and there's a good short summary of it here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/
(A more comprehensive summary can be found in the excellent book "Flying Blind" by Peter Robison.)
It's time for the FCC, the FTC, and other agencies to step in and appoint investigators. And the goal should be to change Boeing's culture in a way that puts it back in the hands of the engineers -- starting with replacing the entire board, preferably with at least a few people who were there back in the day. (They're still around.)
My takeaway from this is that if Boeing wants an exemption from safety rules, the cost of complying with those rules is probably greater than the amount of wrongful death settlements for the number of people they are likely to kill. Never mind planned obsolescence, now we get to worry about planned negligence, too?
Boeing is a big contributor to US export revenues. If non-US customers stop buying US-made planes, the balance of payments goes seriously ahoo. Boeing's management seriously needs a kick in the ass, and not just for the stockholders' sake or for the sake of the travelling public.
Is Bombardier still a thing? I thought it was chopped up for parts. Like its train business went to France's Alstom.
Bombardier built the "killer app" for commuter trains in North America. The double decker hexagonal shaped train cars are Bombardiers. You see them in almost every city.
If it’s not a thing Canadian taxpayers sure give it a lot of money for no reason, lol. It’s like our annual donation to ensure Quebec votes for the Liberal party, I swear.
I looked and Bombardier is still a thing, but its sole line is executive jets. Its passenger jets went to Airbus. Alstom owns the train business. And the personal vehicles like snowmobiles and jet skis went to Bain Capital.
The founder was Joseph-Armand Bombardier, who initially made snowmobiles and eventually became a Canadian defense contractor. Vive le nominative determinism!
Well, technically it is still correct. It didn't "open", the fucker fell off. I guess you could also argue that because it was a door "plug", it wasn't a door.
Personally, they should pull the airworthiness certification from every one of those 737 MAX deathtraps.
Boeing seems determined to become our posterchild for why in many industries it should be much more important to listen to and prioritize what the engineers are telling you, over what the bean counters have to say.
Start bring your own rachets and sockets to check your seats, doors and fuselage sections.
While this is tounge in cheek... Is disturbing to me... Driving down 805 freeway yrs ago... I saw PSA hit the small plane. Saw them turn and fire on the one side. Had they hit on the freeway I wouldn't be here. They landed about 1/2 block in from my side of the freeway. While I was trying to figure out how to get to the area where it looked like it was going to crash, on one side of my brain. The other side was counting to 3. At 3... The big column of black smoke with the rolling flame red boiling inside... Told me nobody survived... Still haunts me. Felt so helpless...
I saw an aerospace engineer break down of the door issue. This "door plug" design has been in use for decades. What is being left out of the conversation is that the 4 bolts that failed ARE NOT WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE HOLDING THE DOOR IN PLACE. They're the secondary safety system. There are twelve massive pins that hold the door plug in place and keep it from sliding out of the sealed shut position, and the fact that those aren't being discussed is a big ol' red flag that they were either defective or entirely missing, which is on Boeing.
the chassis of the plane is designed with an emergency exit that they don't actually use, so instead of the emergency exit door, they put in a plug for that spot. It looks seamless inside the plane, so the passenger sitting there wouldn't have known they were at a weak point in the chassis
A door only in the sense that if you decided you wanted more wall in a house where a window was and bricked it over on the outside and hung drywall on the inside. The bricks are not structurally load bearing and neither is the plug except for pressurization.
Masterpiece!
I have a suggestion: Set up reeducation programs for Boeing management. Purge all the RONA culture brought to the company by the Jack Welch clones, including the ones from McD. Stonecipher, known as Stonesphincter, was a particularly nasty piece of work. By insisting on a development budget of no more than $6 bn, he caused the 787 to cost over $30 bn to develop. Historical information would have indicated a $15 bn development cost.
If the door plug had landed in my yard, I would have announced I found it on Ebay. I have a friend who collects all kinds of airline crap. I bet he knows someone who would pay a fortune for the door plug. That would teach Alaska Airlines to have given me that incredibly crappy sandwich for lunch in 2005.
TIL I learned from the physics teacher that cedar trees have better impulse control than Trump.
The thing to bear in mind is that Boeing is far and away the largest exporter of goods in the US. It's not even close. They do more to equalize our trade balances with the rest of the world with any other company.
So saying they "shouldn't be in the plane business" -- a business they turned into the biggest engineering legend in human history over the course of 80 years -- is a tad fiip. The entire US economy NEEDS Boeing to work. The reasons this is happening are well-understood. Boeing's decline is yet another bitter fruit of corporatism, and there's a good short summary of it here: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/how-boeing-lost-its-bearings/602188/
(A more comprehensive summary can be found in the excellent book "Flying Blind" by Peter Robison.)
It's time for the FCC, the FTC, and other agencies to step in and appoint investigators. And the goal should be to change Boeing's culture in a way that puts it back in the hands of the engineers -- starting with replacing the entire board, preferably with at least a few people who were there back in the day. (They're still around.)
Boing going General Electric way: death by capitalization. Slow but steady.
When I lived in Seattle, that airplane company was known as "the Lazy B." Doubt this has changed.
My takeaway from this is that if Boeing wants an exemption from safety rules, the cost of complying with those rules is probably greater than the amount of wrongful death settlements for the number of people they are likely to kill. Never mind planned obsolescence, now we get to worry about planned negligence, too?
Fight Club in real life! I am Jack’s complete lack of surprise.
What about damage to cedar trees? I bet the tree took a bunch of damage when the back door plug landed on it.
40 years ATC.....that is EXACTLY the mind set of the FAA in CONJUNCTION with the airlines.......keep those cash registers ringing.
Reset the idiot lights and rotate! Destination Profitania.
Must be why they have that big 'master alarm reset' on the panel.....
Boeing is a big contributor to US export revenues. If non-US customers stop buying US-made planes, the balance of payments goes seriously ahoo. Boeing's management seriously needs a kick in the ass, and not just for the stockholders' sake or for the sake of the travelling public.
My preference for a seat in the exit row remains unchanged. (The odds still favor going out the door on purpose.)
Time to order new aeroplanes? Operators at Airbus are standing by.
Bombardier too also.
Is Bombardier still a thing? I thought it was chopped up for parts. Like its train business went to France's Alstom.
Bombardier built the "killer app" for commuter trains in North America. The double decker hexagonal shaped train cars are Bombardiers. You see them in almost every city.
If it’s not a thing Canadian taxpayers sure give it a lot of money for no reason, lol. It’s like our annual donation to ensure Quebec votes for the Liberal party, I swear.
I looked and Bombardier is still a thing, but its sole line is executive jets. Its passenger jets went to Airbus. Alstom owns the train business. And the personal vehicles like snowmobiles and jet skis went to Bain Capital.
The founder was Joseph-Armand Bombardier, who initially made snowmobiles and eventually became a Canadian defense contractor. Vive le nominative determinism!
I'm flying from Oakland to Italy in May, with a stop in Seattle via Alaska Air. I hope I arrive safely. This makes me very anxious.
If it helps, I have flown AA way more times than I can count, and entrusted them with my children. Still here.
Well, THIS didn't age well. From 2013, and ALSO Alaska Airlines, interestingly enough.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2013/05/28/relax-passengers-aircraft-doors-cant-open-in-flight/?sh=1c1ce27aa434
Well, technically it is still correct. It didn't "open", the fucker fell off. I guess you could also argue that because it was a door "plug", it wasn't a door.
Personally, they should pull the airworthiness certification from every one of those 737 MAX deathtraps.
Seeing as it was aft of the wings, I propose it be called the back door plug.
Now it's an aft hole.
Seconded!
Boeing seems determined to become our posterchild for why in many industries it should be much more important to listen to and prioritize what the engineers are telling you, over what the bean counters have to say.
Boeing also used to have an awards program for line workers who suggested process improvements or fixes. I think the dropped that.
Boeing is blaming a contractor in Wichita. The contractor is a company that was Boeing Military Airplane Company until Boeing spun it off in 2006.
That company had a strike earlier this year just about the time this fuselage was rolling down the production line. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/22/boeing-supplier-spirit-aerosystems-stops-production-at-wichita-plant.html
Is Kansas a right-to-work-sloppily state?
Yep
I commented on the wrong thread:
"Two tickets to Topeka? With doors or not?"
Window seat? Do you want a regular or picture window?
Lol. "Optional bolts in seat? $20 for 4. $15.99 for 2."
"Oh, you want Boeing bolts? $7.95 for 6 but you have to install. Ok?"
Start bring your own rachets and sockets to check your seats, doors and fuselage sections.
While this is tounge in cheek... Is disturbing to me... Driving down 805 freeway yrs ago... I saw PSA hit the small plane. Saw them turn and fire on the one side. Had they hit on the freeway I wouldn't be here. They landed about 1/2 block in from my side of the freeway. While I was trying to figure out how to get to the area where it looked like it was going to crash, on one side of my brain. The other side was counting to 3. At 3... The big column of black smoke with the rolling flame red boiling inside... Told me nobody survived... Still haunts me. Felt so helpless...
And I apologize for being glib. Air travel still amazes me. It's a matter of trust.
I suppose all travel is a matter of trust. I should stay on the farm.
But The 737 Max is a disaster. Unbelievable to me that, even, Boeing would approve it.
I saw an aerospace engineer break down of the door issue. This "door plug" design has been in use for decades. What is being left out of the conversation is that the 4 bolts that failed ARE NOT WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE HOLDING THE DOOR IN PLACE. They're the secondary safety system. There are twelve massive pins that hold the door plug in place and keep it from sliding out of the sealed shut position, and the fact that those aren't being discussed is a big ol' red flag that they were either defective or entirely missing, which is on Boeing.
NTSB says the bolts are entirely missing. 😳
Door "plug"?!? makes it sound like something about 3 inches square. What's wrong with just plain "door"?
the chassis of the plane is designed with an emergency exit that they don't actually use, so instead of the emergency exit door, they put in a plug for that spot. It looks seamless inside the plane, so the passenger sitting there wouldn't have known they were at a weak point in the chassis
The door was not in use for that particular plane configuration.
I guess. It's still a door though...
It's not a door until it blows off the fuselage.
A door only in the sense that if you decided you wanted more wall in a house where a window was and bricked it over on the outside and hung drywall on the inside. The bricks are not structurally load bearing and neither is the plug except for pressurization.