It's the same thing as men thinking women are dominating the conversation when they take up as much as 30% of the air time. When you expect zero (noise, assertion, self-respect, whatever), anything more is obviously Way Out Of Bounds.
My standard answer then and now to harrumphing and finger-shaking over "voting for someone because she's a woman" --
Men have been voting on the basis of gender for as long as voting have existed. They have also
Hired on the basis of gender,Given raises on the basis of gender,Given promotions on the basis of gender,Extended credit on the basis of gender,If on a jury, made decisions on the basis of gender.
I'm quite sure you are right. I actually grew up in a family where the father was absent, but not in any negative way. My father worked was a Fish and Wildlife Conservationist, he worked all over the state, then all over the country, then he got a job working for the UN FAO and worked in various foreign countries. Until I was 7 we saw him on weekends, then once a month, then on major holidays, so he was not a major DAILY presence in our lives, but he was a prolific letter writer, and we wrote lots of letters back,so he had a very strong intellectual and literary influence on us. My mother was a daily presence. She was our rock. She worked full time as a nurse, she ran the family finances, she fixed everything when it went wrong, she took care of us when we were sick,etc. When my parents were together, they were a single unit, working together for their children's benefit.
My mother rarely "spoke up" but when she did people trembled and shit happened for the better, Where she influenced us was by role modeling how to be a strong woman who just went out there every day and got stuff done, and got it done right, without making a fuss and without needing any help. It was a kind of "I Am Woman, I Get The Job Done, I Don't Roar Unless I Need To, But When I Do Get The Fuck Out Of My Way"
Oh, those hearings. Remember when Bob Bennett called him by the wrong rank by mistake? I was in disbelief, never having witnessed at that time that retarded style of self-righteousness that comes from I don't know where. I'm familiar with it now.
And really I think a lot of the problem only amounts to this: if you grew up in a family where your mother spoke up freely, you'll grow up effortlessly to be the same kind of woman, and men who grew up with women who were submissive will be outraged. I've come to this conclusion because of girl friends of mine long ago who didn't even think they had a right to have an idea about politics and didn't know how I could say things out loud to other people's parents etc. And I didn't think about it, but I wasn't any different from those girls in other ways. It's a big drawback for a young woman to start out that way. And for guys to start out that way too.
Sounds typical to me. What often happened to me was emails would be sent out by some of the older managers, and my name would be left off the list. I could tell that sometimes it wasn't deliberate, they sometimes actually forgot I worked there. Meetings, in particular, were always interesting. The only way to make sure I wasn't overlooked was to get there early enough to sit right next to the chairman. If they SAW me, they remembered to include me. If I sat at the bottom of the table, out of sight, they forgot to include me.
I had a friend who worked with lots of men, and she was beautiful also, she was about 40 and she was an engineer. Many guys worked slightly below her and her job was to design the programs they used for billings for a huge company. They struggled to obey her and there was an issue-- they wanted to circumvent something she'd set up and each complained to her separately. After a week or so she sent out a message to all of them about it and to her supervisor explaining this and at the end she said. "But you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." I mean to say she was saying they could all do it the way they wanted. When she came in on Monday one of the men in question had by mistake included her on a mass of emails they'd exchanged about her email, all incensed that she'd spoken about them that way. "What are we going to do about this?" "Can you believe this?" "I'm really pissed."It was so mild, what she'd said, and she'd included them on it anyway, it wasn't a secret. I think it was pretty typical.
That's it exactly! I don't like to be horrible about men in these ways but I've tried to talk to various men about this, actually ones I'm related to. I've tried to say that the manly feeling you don't need therapy for depression or rage or jealousy-- because you should be able to deal with it yourself-- those beliefs among men are fine but it's also men, not women, who lose control and punch holes in the wall or beat up their wives or shoot them. And I believe there is a connection between these two sets of phenomena. Hard to convince the men I've discussed this with because they didn't connect themselves with the violent group. But the problem with having the male independent thing is the same. But men as a group don't pay the price for losing control and killing, the way women as a group pay the price for being "loud" and difficult. Ha ha that's weird and unfortunate.
Maybe they're afraid you're having your period somehow. Maybe this is the origin of those taboos, when girls and women have to be isolated during those times. Because it seems to make them more horrible than usual.
It's the same thing as men thinking women are dominating the conversation when they take up as much as 30% of the air time. When you expect zero (noise, assertion, self-respect, whatever), anything more is obviously Way Out Of Bounds.
Fortunately you and I always agree!
Yah, what's it does it mean anyway, except 'I reject what you're saying right now.'
My standard answer then and now to harrumphing and finger-shaking over "voting for someone because she's a woman" --
Men have been voting on the basis of gender for as long as voting have existed. They have also
Hired on the basis of gender,Given raises on the basis of gender,Given promotions on the basis of gender,Extended credit on the basis of gender,If on a jury, made decisions on the basis of gender.
Oh, and one more --
INTERRUPTED A SPEAKER on the basis of gender.
I'm quite sure you are right. I actually grew up in a family where the father was absent, but not in any negative way. My father worked was a Fish and Wildlife Conservationist, he worked all over the state, then all over the country, then he got a job working for the UN FAO and worked in various foreign countries. Until I was 7 we saw him on weekends, then once a month, then on major holidays, so he was not a major DAILY presence in our lives, but he was a prolific letter writer, and we wrote lots of letters back,so he had a very strong intellectual and literary influence on us. My mother was a daily presence. She was our rock. She worked full time as a nurse, she ran the family finances, she fixed everything when it went wrong, she took care of us when we were sick,etc. When my parents were together, they were a single unit, working together for their children's benefit.
My mother rarely "spoke up" but when she did people trembled and shit happened for the better, Where she influenced us was by role modeling how to be a strong woman who just went out there every day and got stuff done, and got it done right, without making a fuss and without needing any help. It was a kind of "I Am Woman, I Get The Job Done, I Don't Roar Unless I Need To, But When I Do Get The Fuck Out Of My Way"
Be kind. So many men are ruled by their emotions and hormones.
Oh, those hearings. Remember when Bob Bennett called him by the wrong rank by mistake? I was in disbelief, never having witnessed at that time that retarded style of self-righteousness that comes from I don't know where. I'm familiar with it now.
And really I think a lot of the problem only amounts to this: if you grew up in a family where your mother spoke up freely, you'll grow up effortlessly to be the same kind of woman, and men who grew up with women who were submissive will be outraged. I've come to this conclusion because of girl friends of mine long ago who didn't even think they had a right to have an idea about politics and didn't know how I could say things out loud to other people's parents etc. And I didn't think about it, but I wasn't any different from those girls in other ways. It's a big drawback for a young woman to start out that way. And for guys to start out that way too.
Sounds typical to me. What often happened to me was emails would be sent out by some of the older managers, and my name would be left off the list. I could tell that sometimes it wasn't deliberate, they sometimes actually forgot I worked there. Meetings, in particular, were always interesting. The only way to make sure I wasn't overlooked was to get there early enough to sit right next to the chairman. If they SAW me, they remembered to include me. If I sat at the bottom of the table, out of sight, they forgot to include me.
I had a friend who worked with lots of men, and she was beautiful also, she was about 40 and she was an engineer. Many guys worked slightly below her and her job was to design the programs they used for billings for a huge company. They struggled to obey her and there was an issue-- they wanted to circumvent something she'd set up and each complained to her separately. After a week or so she sent out a message to all of them about it and to her supervisor explaining this and at the end she said. "But you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." I mean to say she was saying they could all do it the way they wanted. When she came in on Monday one of the men in question had by mistake included her on a mass of emails they'd exchanged about her email, all incensed that she'd spoken about them that way. "What are we going to do about this?" "Can you believe this?" "I'm really pissed."It was so mild, what she'd said, and she'd included them on it anyway, it wasn't a secret. I think it was pretty typical.
Maybe you could remind him of that, in a nice way. (depending on how old he is.)
That's it exactly! I don't like to be horrible about men in these ways but I've tried to talk to various men about this, actually ones I'm related to. I've tried to say that the manly feeling you don't need therapy for depression or rage or jealousy-- because you should be able to deal with it yourself-- those beliefs among men are fine but it's also men, not women, who lose control and punch holes in the wall or beat up their wives or shoot them. And I believe there is a connection between these two sets of phenomena. Hard to convince the men I've discussed this with because they didn't connect themselves with the violent group. But the problem with having the male independent thing is the same. But men as a group don't pay the price for losing control and killing, the way women as a group pay the price for being "loud" and difficult. Ha ha that's weird and unfortunate.
Maybe they're afraid you're having your period somehow. Maybe this is the origin of those taboos, when girls and women have to be isolated during those times. Because it seems to make them more horrible than usual.
The little fellow just needs encouragement!
And my favorite... https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
A leash law also too.