It's all terribly confusing.
The original Marshall Plan was less "reconstruction funding" than long-term loans (and requiring "recipents" to give concessions to US corporations. What I see here is more loans... and the G7 "guiding" futre Ukrainian policy... presumably with the kind of "guidance" we've seen elsewhere in the world, which has mean cutting the social safety net, labor rights, etc. in the name of "free trade". Not sure it's all it's cracked up to be.
Is that supposed to be some sort of rebuttal?
It's supposed to be an acknowledgment that you're here to make excuses for the Russians, and can, therefore ... fuck off. Minimizing this invasion as a "feint toward Kiev?" Well, you can just ... fuck off. Maybe even ALL the way off.
"The purpose of the original feint towards Kiev..." Stop right there. There was no "feint" towards Kyiv but an all-out effort to capture the capital quickly and install a new government. Only when it failed did the Russians try to spin it Pee Wee Herman style ("I meant to do that...")"Peace talks are long past due" No talks are of any use with someone who rejects the very concept of abiding by agreements. Until Putin is ousted or dead, there cannot be any talks.
No talks are of any use with someone who rejects the very concept of abiding by agreements.
Unfortunately in this case you're talking about every government and most of the oligarchs involved in the entire clusterfuck, led by that prime treaty breaker the US. Zelinskyy himself ran as a "peace" candidate, promising to implement the Minsk II agreement which would have prevented the entire mess. Since he was funded by the same oligarch as paid to found the Azov Battalion it was probably foolish for people to believe it, and of course he almost immediately turned 180 degrees once in office. Now the innocent civilians of most of Europe are paying for their naivete, not to mention the Ukrainians and Russians.
BTW, the US and NATO doesn't get to choose who the Russians elect as their leader. As friends in Moscow said, "We don't like him much, but all the alternatives are an order of magnitude worse so we'll vote for him again." (Come to think of it, that was pretty much the same reason for voting for Biden in 2020.)
"Unfortunately in this case you're talking about every government" No. We are not."BTW, the US and NATO doesn't get to choose who the Russians elect as their leader." Neither does Russia get to choose who their neighbors elect, or what alliances they choose to enter, to defend the territorial integrity of their borders which the lying scum in Russia promised to respect.
Who's involved? The US, which routinely ignores any international law or treaty it dislikes, Russia, which invaded in violation of the UN Charter, the rest of the NATO countries, which have invaded countries in violation of the UN Charter, Ukraine, which spent 8 years allowing violations of the Geneva Conventions to be perpetrated in the Donbass. Well, I guess the new NATO member Finland can be excepted, so you're right.
Someone asked about context. I gave it. If you think that events should just be accepted at face value according to the official US-approved narrative then you and I will probably never agree on anything. Just ignore my posts from here out, especially if you think that wars which kill civilians by the thousands are preferable to peace that rearranges lines on a map.
"the rest of the NATO countries, which have invaded countries in violation of the UN Charter"? What are you talking about? Now, I will not defend Bush's invasion of Iraq, which I opposed then and ever since, but we never aimed to annex any of its territory or destroy its integrity as a nation. And I know of no examples at all of other NATO countries launching invasions, unless you mean something very different by that word than most people. What Russia is doing is attempting to end the very concept of nations having borders to be respected."Ukraine, which spent 8 years allowing violations of the Geneva Conventions to be perpetrated in the Donbass" Again I have no idea what you are talking about. I often hear Putinites making vague accusations that Ukraine was committing atrocities but never with a single example given, let alone any evidence of the story. Contrast this with the voluminous evidence of mass graves, rape and torture survivors, etc. everywhere the orcs have been.
Following the US-backed coup in 2014 the use of Russian as an official language in commerce and government was outlawed and celebration of ethnic-Russian festivals prohibited. The majority-Russian eastern provinces, which were only added to Ukraine to dilute the ethnic Ukrainian vote in the Politburo by Lenin, immediately revolted and declared independence. The post-coup Ukrainian government allowed the formation of far-right militias armed by various oligarchs, which proceeded to carry out ethnic cleansing operations against Roma and ethnic-Russian and Turkmen populations with no interference by the central government or the military. In 2018 most of the militias were legally incorporated into the Armed Forces of the Ukraine (AFU), and continued their operations in the Donbass with official backing.
Up until late 2019 the outsized power of the far right in Ukraine (they really only represent a small percentage of the population) was a common topic of writers of international politics, such as this article by The Nation. https://www.thenation.com/a...
In 2014 Ukrainians decided that they wanted to be less like Russians and more like Europeans. Every day since you have provided them more reasons to feel their decision was correct."The majority-Russian eastern provinces" were invaded by little green men from Russia. How much of the population there actually sympathized with the secession attempt at the time is unknowable, but many there who were once on Putin's side has since come to hate the orcs as much as anyone else in the country."proceeded to carry out ethnic cleansing operations" This is the kind of accusation I often hear from Putinites, without naming any places or dates or linking to any pictures or testimony supporting the claim.
In 1860 the Southern states decided that they wanted to discriminate against certain people. For some reason American liberals seem to think that was a bad thing, but that discrimination against Russian people is a good thing. An awful lot of support for the war is simple racism, I see Russians called "animals" and worse things right here on Wonkette all the time.
Russians are typically called "orcs" because they leave mass graves of hundreds of corpses, torture dungeons, and gang rape survivors everywhere they go, along with deliberately shelling civilian infrastructure and making an especial effort to target helpless refugees. This is based on their behavior, not their "race" which is utterly irrelevant when there is scarcely any genetic difference from one Slavic people to another, or indeed from Slavic peoples to any neighboring eastern Europeans.To compare the background of this war to 1860 is simply absurd. Far from enslaving Russian speakers or ethnically cleansing the Jews, the Ukrainians elected a Russian-speaking Jew to the Presidency, a courageous man whom people like you want to murder.
I have worked with Russians in Seattle, Moscow, Michigan, Virginia, California, and Australia, and can tell you that you are resoundingly full of shit. While I tend to agree with you on most things this is one that I draw the line on. Russians are not much different than Peruvians, Italians, Spaniards, Mexicans, Chinese, Koreans, or Canadians, there are some assholes, most are nice people, and the rest fall in between. Discriminating against people, assuming they're "orcs", simply because of where they come from is not only wrong, it's absolutely fucking stupid. You may as well say, "All Mexican wetbacks are just coming here to suck up welfare", or "The Chinese never invent anything, they can only steal other people's work."
I respect your opinion in most other things, and am going to drop this discussion now.
I always liked the way Pratchett's DEATH spoke in all caps. The guy was a great writer.
I am almost, (unfortuantely, not actually), speechless about Republican support for f**king Russia fer chrissakes. What are these guys even thinking??