But Russia has one of the most unequal income and wealth repartition in the world, so ordinary Russians make up by far the largest proportion of terribly poor people in Europe. Which is definitely one way of being the poorest.
Yes we do. It is a thing that is done between parties who are acting in good faith, when a compromise between the two sides would be a morally acceptable solution. But when Hitler proposes killing all the Jews, and we would rather he killed no Jews, you think we should negotiate about maybe him killing half the Jews? No, he simply had to be defeated, utterly, much as Putin must be defeated, utterly.
So for the war to stop one side has to capitulate completely, and the other gains everything. That's not how negotiations work. (Unless you're the Roman Empire, at which point "negotiations" consisted of "Give us what we want or we annihilate your tribe.")
It's annoying how you imply that anyone who thinks that peace is preferable to more war must be a paid shill, apparently no one could conceivably have that goal for any other reason. Eugene McCarthy would be proud of you. Do you also believe that the only propaganda in this conflict arises in Moscow? That the US's motives are pure as the driven snow? That all the atrocities have been carried out only by Russians? That Zelinsky has completely embraced democracy and would never imprison political opponents or shut down opposition media?
Russia invaded Ukraine. In 2014 and again, in force, in 2022. The stated goal was to crush Ukraine, install a puppet government, and bring Ukraine back into the Russian fold regardless of what the Ukrainians wanted.
Putin doesn't consider Ukraine a real country. They're a wayward Russian state according to him. There's no negotiating with that.
What, exactly, do you think Ukraine should give up to stop the county that wants to forcibly rewrite its borders to stop that country from rewriting its borders by force. Be specific please.
Propaganda has nothing to do with it.
Russia could end the war today by abandoning its imperialistic goals and leaving Ukraine. Instant peace. Until then, Ukraine is well within its rights and international law to kill every Russian soldier in its territory and they should be well supplied to do so.
Were you aware that Crimea held a vote after the coup where 90+% of the population preferred to leave the poorest country in Europe and join Russia? (Including the 18% of the population which is ethnic Ukrainian.) The people of the Donbas (the other two majority-ethnic Russian provinces) revolted after the US-aided 2014 coup and also voted to break away from Ukraine. In the subsequent violent repression by the central government 14,000-20,000 people have been killed, almost all of them civilians.
Do you believe people should be able to decide their own fate, or do you think "might makes right"? If the former then you should support the peace talks, which included allowing the Donbas to make its own decision as to which country to belong to, or if they wish then to stay independent. Did you know that Zelinsky's presidential campaign centered around doing just that? He was elected to be a "peace president", but immediately did a 180 degree turn and started siding with the hard line right wing to violate the Minsk II Accord.
The only country trying to use might makes right in this war is Russia. They invaded. Twice. They expected an easy victory. They didn't get that because Ukraine is united against them. They're not even having an easy time in Donbas where they've been in control for eight years and you claim the population wants to be part of Russia.
I asked you what exactly Ukraine needs to give up to the country that's currently forcibly trying to rewrite its borders. Be specific please. Since Russia giving up its imperialistic dreams and forcibly rewriting the borders is apparently out of the question. What, exactly, should Ukraine give to the might makes right country.
Let the people of the Donbas decide what country they want to belong to. I thought that was obvious. Zelinsky was all for the idea during his presidential campaign, before gigantic piles of money and weapons started flooding into his country.
Edit: None of what I said is "Kremlin propaganda", you need to read something besides US press.
When Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill negotiated at Yalta **NONE** of them were negotiating in good faith, and yet they got a successful, though not really morally acceptable, accord.
And that's really a crappy straw man there, did you make it from Godwin's grass clippings, or what?
The UN OHCHR. UN Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights. Hardly the US press. Let's see what the OHCHR has to say. These numbers were the confirmed ones from about a month prior to the current Russian driven hostility.
Those 13-14K killed since 2014? Not "mostly civilians".
4K Ukrainian troops. Not civilians. 5K armed, Russian backed and supplied separatists. Also not civilians. 3.3K civilians. A lot of them killed by Russian mines. 300 of them, the 0.3K were on the Malaysian Air flight Russian troops "accidentally" shot down. The rest appear to be Russian troops, in and out of uniform, that Russia always claimed weren't there at all.
And here you are vomiting up the Russian provided numbers while claiming I'm falling for western propaganda.
Since you're lying about these numbers, you're lying about the "votes" in the supposed breakaway regions, since those are Kremlin provided numbers.
But let's pretend your numbers are accurate. They're not, but we're pretending they are. If Ukraine needs to give up the Donbas, to let the region vote to stay or leave, then Russia needs to form up, turn east, march back across the Russian border, taking all Russian troops and citizens with them, including the ones that were planted there to foment, arm, and supply the separatists, and let the Ukrainians of the region decide. There can't be a fair election while Russia occupies the area.
But Russia has one of the most unequal income and wealth repartition in the world, so ordinary Russians make up by far the largest proportion of terribly poor people in Europe. Which is definitely one way of being the poorest.
Yes we do. It is a thing that is done between parties who are acting in good faith, when a compromise between the two sides would be a morally acceptable solution. But when Hitler proposes killing all the Jews, and we would rather he killed no Jews, you think we should negotiate about maybe him killing half the Jews? No, he simply had to be defeated, utterly, much as Putin must be defeated, utterly.
RNC?
So for the war to stop one side has to capitulate completely, and the other gains everything. That's not how negotiations work. (Unless you're the Roman Empire, at which point "negotiations" consisted of "Give us what we want or we annihilate your tribe.")
It's annoying how you imply that anyone who thinks that peace is preferable to more war must be a paid shill, apparently no one could conceivably have that goal for any other reason. Eugene McCarthy would be proud of you. Do you also believe that the only propaganda in this conflict arises in Moscow? That the US's motives are pure as the driven snow? That all the atrocities have been carried out only by Russians? That Zelinsky has completely embraced democracy and would never imprison political opponents or shut down opposition media?
yes, the side that initiated the war has to capitulate completely, especially as it has shown zero good faith in negotiations
Russia invaded Ukraine. In 2014 and again, in force, in 2022. The stated goal was to crush Ukraine, install a puppet government, and bring Ukraine back into the Russian fold regardless of what the Ukrainians wanted.
Putin doesn't consider Ukraine a real country. They're a wayward Russian state according to him. There's no negotiating with that.
What, exactly, do you think Ukraine should give up to stop the county that wants to forcibly rewrite its borders to stop that country from rewriting its borders by force. Be specific please.
Propaganda has nothing to do with it.
Russia could end the war today by abandoning its imperialistic goals and leaving Ukraine. Instant peace. Until then, Ukraine is well within its rights and international law to kill every Russian soldier in its territory and they should be well supplied to do so.
Were you aware that Crimea held a vote after the coup where 90+% of the population preferred to leave the poorest country in Europe and join Russia? (Including the 18% of the population which is ethnic Ukrainian.) The people of the Donbas (the other two majority-ethnic Russian provinces) revolted after the US-aided 2014 coup and also voted to break away from Ukraine. In the subsequent violent repression by the central government 14,000-20,000 people have been killed, almost all of them civilians.
Do you believe people should be able to decide their own fate, or do you think "might makes right"? If the former then you should support the peace talks, which included allowing the Donbas to make its own decision as to which country to belong to, or if they wish then to stay independent. Did you know that Zelinsky's presidential campaign centered around doing just that? He was elected to be a "peace president", but immediately did a 180 degree turn and started siding with the hard line right wing to violate the Minsk II Accord.
More Kremlin propaganda.
The only country trying to use might makes right in this war is Russia. They invaded. Twice. They expected an easy victory. They didn't get that because Ukraine is united against them. They're not even having an easy time in Donbas where they've been in control for eight years and you claim the population wants to be part of Russia.
I asked you what exactly Ukraine needs to give up to the country that's currently forcibly trying to rewrite its borders. Be specific please. Since Russia giving up its imperialistic dreams and forcibly rewriting the borders is apparently out of the question. What, exactly, should Ukraine give to the might makes right country.
Or do your talking points not cover that?
Let the people of the Donbas decide what country they want to belong to. I thought that was obvious. Zelinsky was all for the idea during his presidential campaign, before gigantic piles of money and weapons started flooding into his country.
Edit: None of what I said is "Kremlin propaganda", you need to read something besides US press.
You seem really stooopid, too. Just what would make Russia happy in "negotiation and peace talks?" Please be specific, I'll wait.
15.2K comments and zero-0-nil-nada upvotes? Even I do better than that.
I assumed the ball bearings referenced was from Animal House.
When Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill negotiated at Yalta **NONE** of them were negotiating in good faith, and yet they got a successful, though not really morally acceptable, accord.
And that's really a crappy straw man there, did you make it from Godwin's grass clippings, or what?
Russia doesn't even make the top ten poorest in Europe. Search engines can be your friend.
https://www.worldatlas.com/...
The UN OHCHR. UN Office of the High Commissioner of Human Rights. Hardly the US press. Let's see what the OHCHR has to say. These numbers were the confirmed ones from about a month prior to the current Russian driven hostility.
Those 13-14K killed since 2014? Not "mostly civilians".
4K Ukrainian troops. Not civilians. 5K armed, Russian backed and supplied separatists. Also not civilians. 3.3K civilians. A lot of them killed by Russian mines. 300 of them, the 0.3K were on the Malaysian Air flight Russian troops "accidentally" shot down. The rest appear to be Russian troops, in and out of uniform, that Russia always claimed weren't there at all.
And here you are vomiting up the Russian provided numbers while claiming I'm falling for western propaganda.
Since you're lying about these numbers, you're lying about the "votes" in the supposed breakaway regions, since those are Kremlin provided numbers.
But let's pretend your numbers are accurate. They're not, but we're pretending they are. If Ukraine needs to give up the Donbas, to let the region vote to stay or leave, then Russia needs to form up, turn east, march back across the Russian border, taking all Russian troops and citizens with them, including the ones that were planted there to foment, arm, and supply the separatists, and let the Ukrainians of the region decide. There can't be a fair election while Russia occupies the area.
Care to try again, tankie?
You got to admit, they know their audience. They did their best to prohibit every possible thing that could be turned into a weapon.
That's what the excessive zip ties are for.