What a wimp Last week, Dr. Ben Carson -- alleged educated person, supposedly in possession of a functioning brain -- offered his innovative Hot Tips For How To Survive A Holocaust. First, man up with a military-grade arsenal so that when the Nazis come to genocide you, you can scream "Die, Nazi scum!" and
I refuse to believe this grifting wanker is an idiot who doesn't believe in science. He's a neurosurgeon FFS. What he is, is a master con artist, and professional grifter. He's in it for the cash and nothing more.
Fair point. Eg the decision not to help the Warsaw ghetto fighters must have been made by top brass.
And I think the Americans did actually make a bit of a push at the very, very end to liberate some camp(s) earlier than what would normally have happened.
But I am thinking of officers down to Colonel, squadron commander, everyone within their limited sphere of influence - they all had at least some discretion, right?I don't have citations - I was in the military myself, though, and my parents taught history in high school, so I got dragged around as a kid to museums, read books all day long. Also, my hometown of Oettingen, Germany, pop. 4000, was bombed in February 1944 by a formation of 'Flying Fortresses' who had gotten lost on their way to their target, Nuremberg. So they dropped their bombs on a railway station and a bridge, flattening two neighborhoods. There were not many casualties, but militarily this made no sense, I think.
I am German, so what can I say? complain?? The Warsaw ghetto uprising is a good case to bring Ben Carson's ignorance into sharper relief. There were real heroes on the inside and outside - and sorry, Irena Sendler, if that irritates you, you were one if there ever was one. They acted after careful preparation, thinking through their options, putting their lives on the line for the good of the community. Nobody can be expected to show such bravery. They did not ask 'everybody charge the machine guns', especially not children. And they knew the terrible odds, but saw that doing nothing was worse. Carson's statement is so revolting because he equates this to the situation of people in a movie theater or a school, faced with one or two heavily armed lunatics. There ,you know that you only need to survive for a few minutes, hours at most, until police will have the situation under control. So charge the shooter if you feel you have a chance, but nobody can blame you if you hide under a desk.
These guys have been watching too many war movies such as "Inglorious Basterds" where a handful of men almost defeat the German army. Or, "The Dirty Dozen" where another handful of miscreants almost defeat the German army, at least at one location where they kill all the generals. Wow!! Why can't we do that today with Isis with our special op guys. With their years of training, a few of them could wipe out a whole army. Actually, there were many Jewish resistance fighters. I'm not sure how much they were assisted by their gentile neighbors? And much, much more. An entire history book, at least.
tl;dr.At any point in this diatribe did the author explain how Anne Frank was going to be WORSE OFF THAN BEING KILLED IN THE HOLOCAUST, if they had been armed?
Well, if you feel you really have to take that position, I suppose you've the option to do so. But remember that we are talking about people who are no different than you or I. But they lived in a time that was very very different than how we live here today. There was no freedom, no right to weapons, hell, after one date in time, Jews weren't even permitted to wear coats that had fur collars. Arms were not available to them. Just like food and shelter, these benefits were forbidden. Barred from legal purchase, there was the black market, but that took a good amount of cash which the Jews no longer possessed. Not to mention connections.
It would be like me telling you to score an ounce of heroin, after all of your money, your home and business has been seized. Hurry up, you've only got a couple hours. Or, let me guess, you haven't the faintest idea where to begin, right? Apart from that, the risk involved in attempting to purchase a firearm, which in itself wasn't an actual option, but let's say for the sake or argument they could, ensured that not only would no one sell you one, you were about 98% likely to be reported to the authorities for even asking. Which meant death or transport out on the next selection. Resistance existed, organized and otherwise, but it's very complicated and every action took ages of painstaking planning.
Also, remember that when they were loaded onto the trains they were told they were finally being sent to a place where they could work and live in peace. By that time you are so hungry and so broken, the idea of a place like that seems heaven-sent. They even had people write their names on their luggage and tie their shoes together when entering the showers, to make the ruse that much more believable.
All of this is not even taking into consideration the degraded mindset one had to view this from. There are people in the US that have never even had a week of going hungry, much less years of it. The only way to know what that feels like and to understand is to talk with a survivor or read their stories. We'll still be miles from feeling what they felt, but at least we will have a small handful of comprehension.
Even after a few years when rumors started to circulate, that they were burning Jews and their supporters en masse, that concentration camps held tens of thousands of people at once, who were given each day a half ounce of bread and a cupful of lukewarm water with nettles on the bottom to live/die on, it was all hardly believable. There are people today, armed with hindsight, no threat of death in front of them and scads of historical proof, who don't believe it. Because it was that obscene.
We have the history lesson in front of us. Instead of criticizing the people who were on the short end of the stick, maybe we'd be better off to see how alike we are, how much we have in common-- it wasn't so long ago, after all-- and try to raise our children in a way that would make a repeat of that society impossible.
Well I haven't stated my opinion, other than to suggest pyrodyce read the article, which by his own admission he didn't do. I completely agree with everything else you said. My grandmother survived the Warsaw Ghetto and I am very much in favor of armed resistance.
What I'm not in favor of-- Right wing NRA nuts using my family's history as a political football.
What I also don't agree with-- radical armament programs. And insinuating that genocide is somehow caused by a lack of guns...
And you just came to troll, so no, I'm sure you had no point.
It's ok. We both knew there isn't REALLY a worse fate than having nazis bust in on Kristallnacht, kidnapping everyone you know and love, and slowly murdering them, so I understand that you had nothin'.
The troll is someone who doesn't read the article, then says how stupid it is. Tl;dr.
We agree that there isn't a worse fate than having nazis conducting kidnap & murder. As I said in other responses, my grandmother was one of them. She survived the Warsaw Ghetto and I am very much in favor of armed resistance.
What I'm not in favor of-- Right wing NRA nuts using my family's history as a political football.
What I also disagree with-- radical armament programs. And insinuating that genocide is somehow caused by a lack of guns.
That was the point of the article. But you didn't read it. So what's the point?
US Navy. Ordered to blockade Iraq. Starved a million people to death, half of them children, on orders telling us that it was oil.
Note that Bosnia had TWO sides fighting, unlike the concentration camps.You don't think the presence of guns factored into that? I know they're the reason we couldn't conquer Iraq, just destroy its government.
Genocide is the deliberate killing of a group of people based on ethnicity, so if you have some guilt over Iraq, it's not warranted. Nazis, along with many civilians *wanted* to kill Jews solely because they were Jews. Serbs wanted to kill muslims because they were Muslims. The evidence was painted in symbols across all the Muslim homes.
In contrast, the US went to Iraq for many crappy reasons, none of which were the slaughter of its citizens.
Which brings us back to Ben Carson, and why you should give this article an honest go, dispite the fact that it's published by Wonkette.
I refuse to believe this grifting wanker is an idiot who doesn't believe in science. He's a neurosurgeon FFS. What he is, is a master con artist, and professional grifter. He's in it for the cash and nothing more.
I just want to stop trembling.
Fair point. Eg the decision not to help the Warsaw ghetto fighters must have been made by top brass.
And I think the Americans did actually make a bit of a push at the very, very end to liberate some camp(s) earlier than what would normally have happened.
But I am thinking of officers down to Colonel, squadron commander, everyone within their limited sphere of influence - they all had at least some discretion, right?I don't have citations - I was in the military myself, though, and my parents taught history in high school, so I got dragged around as a kid to museums, read books all day long. Also, my hometown of Oettingen, Germany, pop. 4000, was bombed in February 1944 by a formation of 'Flying Fortresses' who had gotten lost on their way to their target, Nuremberg. So they dropped their bombs on a railway station and a bridge, flattening two neighborhoods. There were not many casualties, but militarily this made no sense, I think.
I am German, so what can I say? complain?? The Warsaw ghetto uprising is a good case to bring Ben Carson's ignorance into sharper relief. There were real heroes on the inside and outside - and sorry, Irena Sendler, if that irritates you, you were one if there ever was one. They acted after careful preparation, thinking through their options, putting their lives on the line for the good of the community. Nobody can be expected to show such bravery. They did not ask 'everybody charge the machine guns', especially not children. And they knew the terrible odds, but saw that doing nothing was worse. Carson's statement is so revolting because he equates this to the situation of people in a movie theater or a school, faced with one or two heavily armed lunatics. There ,you know that you only need to survive for a few minutes, hours at most, until police will have the situation under control. So charge the shooter if you feel you have a chance, but nobody can blame you if you hide under a desk.
... and back to Sendler: typical that one person who did more good than most did so without guns.
These guys have been watching too many war movies such as "Inglorious Basterds" where a handful of men almost defeat the German army. Or, "The Dirty Dozen" where another handful of miscreants almost defeat the German army, at least at one location where they kill all the generals. Wow!! Why can't we do that today with Isis with our special op guys. With their years of training, a few of them could wipe out a whole army. Actually, there were many Jewish resistance fighters. I'm not sure how much they were assisted by their gentile neighbors? And much, much more. An entire history book, at least.
tl;dr.At any point in this diatribe did the author explain how Anne Frank was going to be WORSE OFF THAN BEING KILLED IN THE HOLOCAUST, if they had been armed?
That's the problem with tl;dr. You didn't read. If the evidence doesn't support your worldview you'll ignore it right?
I'll ignore THIS, because snark ≠evidence. but hey! try out the "evidence" idea next time, and maybe we'll BOTH learn something!
Well, if you feel you really have to take that position, I suppose you've the option to do so. But remember that we are talking about people who are no different than you or I. But they lived in a time that was very very different than how we live here today. There was no freedom, no right to weapons, hell, after one date in time, Jews weren't even permitted to wear coats that had fur collars. Arms were not available to them. Just like food and shelter, these benefits were forbidden. Barred from legal purchase, there was the black market, but that took a good amount of cash which the Jews no longer possessed. Not to mention connections.
It would be like me telling you to score an ounce of heroin, after all of your money, your home and business has been seized. Hurry up, you've only got a couple hours. Or, let me guess, you haven't the faintest idea where to begin, right? Apart from that, the risk involved in attempting to purchase a firearm, which in itself wasn't an actual option, but let's say for the sake or argument they could, ensured that not only would no one sell you one, you were about 98% likely to be reported to the authorities for even asking. Which meant death or transport out on the next selection. Resistance existed, organized and otherwise, but it's very complicated and every action took ages of painstaking planning.
Also, remember that when they were loaded onto the trains they were told they were finally being sent to a place where they could work and live in peace. By that time you are so hungry and so broken, the idea of a place like that seems heaven-sent. They even had people write their names on their luggage and tie their shoes together when entering the showers, to make the ruse that much more believable.
All of this is not even taking into consideration the degraded mindset one had to view this from. There are people in the US that have never even had a week of going hungry, much less years of it. The only way to know what that feels like and to understand is to talk with a survivor or read their stories. We'll still be miles from feeling what they felt, but at least we will have a small handful of comprehension.
Even after a few years when rumors started to circulate, that they were burning Jews and their supporters en masse, that concentration camps held tens of thousands of people at once, who were given each day a half ounce of bread and a cupful of lukewarm water with nettles on the bottom to live/die on, it was all hardly believable. There are people today, armed with hindsight, no threat of death in front of them and scads of historical proof, who don't believe it. Because it was that obscene.
We have the history lesson in front of us. Instead of criticizing the people who were on the short end of the stick, maybe we'd be better off to see how alike we are, how much we have in common-- it wasn't so long ago, after all-- and try to raise our children in a way that would make a repeat of that society impossible.
you didn't even read the article. So what's the point?
Well I haven't stated my opinion, other than to suggest pyrodyce read the article, which by his own admission he didn't do. I completely agree with everything else you said. My grandmother survived the Warsaw Ghetto and I am very much in favor of armed resistance.
What I'm not in favor of-- Right wing NRA nuts using my family's history as a political football.
What I also don't agree with-- radical armament programs. And insinuating that genocide is somehow caused by a lack of guns...
And you just came to troll, so no, I'm sure you had no point.
It's ok. We both knew there isn't REALLY a worse fate than having nazis bust in on Kristallnacht, kidnapping everyone you know and love, and slowly murdering them, so I understand that you had nothin'.
The troll is someone who doesn't read the article, then says how stupid it is. Tl;dr.
We agree that there isn't a worse fate than having nazis conducting kidnap & murder. As I said in other responses, my grandmother was one of them. She survived the Warsaw Ghetto and I am very much in favor of armed resistance.
What I'm not in favor of-- Right wing NRA nuts using my family's history as a political football.
What I also disagree with-- radical armament programs. And insinuating that genocide is somehow caused by a lack of guns.
That was the point of the article. But you didn't read it. So what's the point?
US Navy. Ordered to blockade Iraq. Starved a million people to death, half of them children, on orders telling us that it was oil.
Note that Bosnia had TWO sides fighting, unlike the concentration camps.You don't think the presence of guns factored into that? I know they're the reason we couldn't conquer Iraq, just destroy its government.
Genocide is the deliberate killing of a group of people based on ethnicity, so if you have some guilt over Iraq, it's not warranted. Nazis, along with many civilians *wanted* to kill Jews solely because they were Jews. Serbs wanted to kill muslims because they were Muslims. The evidence was painted in symbols across all the Muslim homes.
In contrast, the US went to Iraq for many crappy reasons, none of which were the slaughter of its citizens.
Which brings us back to Ben Carson, and why you should give this article an honest go, dispite the fact that it's published by Wonkette.