Fact is, Calley may have been making a true statement when he said he was "just following orders." There was testimony to that effect at Captain Medina's own Court Martial. The trial board did not find it credible enough to convict Medina, but that does not mean that it wasn't true or even that the board did not believe that it was true. It only means that it did not meet the standard of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt "
"Just following orders" is not an adequate defense, though. Not by itself. There is a duty to follow lawful orders; there is a corresponding duty to disobey unlawful ones. My own training, as an enlisted Marine a decade after My Lai made that excruciatingly clear. And if I had ever been involved in that situation in Calley's position, I would have damanded that any orders to kill non-combatant civilians be made clearly and unequivocally...and then refused them as unlawful if not modified to apply only to hostiles. And if it was not possible to formally refuse the orders (due to active combat or other circumstances) I would have interpreted them that way.
Calley should have known that. But it's possible he didn't. His selection and training was appallingly bad. Shockingly so, by my standards and experience from a decade later. He had some college, not much, definitely no degree. He successfully completed boot camp as an enlisted man. He passed a test. He was given eight weeks of Officer Candidate School and was then commissioned as a second lieutenant.
A decade earlier, I could literally have been William Calley. I had some college, not much. I went to boot camp, graduated successfully, with a recommendation for the Enlisted Commissioning Program. Had I been under the same system as Calley, I too would have gone immediately to OCS. And passed, OCS doesn't stress candidates any greater way than boot camp, except academically, which I would have easily handled. I would yet have turned nineteen when I received my bars.
The only reason it didn't happen that way is because by 1980, a commission required a college degree along with ROTC (NROTC for Marines), an advanced degree, or considerable experience as an enlisted man for some specialties, generally non-combat. The Enlisted Commissioning Program was not a ticket to OCS, it was a way to assist bright enlisted men to go to college while still serving in the Marine Reserves.
Calley was guilty, make no mistake there. But the failure belonged to the entire United States Government.
Thank you for the education. We do a lot of terrible things to the people we expect to kill and die for us, including not necessarily preparing them adequately. I didn't know any of this, and I'm old enough to remember My Lai.
That doesn't surprise me. My Lai was too big and too polarizing to get all the facts covered properly. Everybody was on a side, and whatever side anyone were on, some of the facts fucked up the story they wanted to tell. And of course some of them didn't become clear until much later.
"that Sy Hersh, who brought the My Lai atrocities to public notice and won the 1970 Pulitzer for it, has since become a conspiracy-chasing wackaloon himself. " ... this seems to happen so often, there must be something about the human brain where it breaks down and gets wacky...
Think of some of the proven scandals that journalists have uncovered. This massacre. Watergate. The Tuskegee Experiment. Systemic corruption protecting the KKK. Foreign CIA coups. Iran-Contra affair. They all sound like the deluded ravings of a basement dwelling conspiracies... except they actually happened.
Like all investigators, reporters see how the sausage is made.
They have intimate knowledge of exactly how wild things can get. Like the health inspector who refuses to touch any food they haven't prepared personally, their filter may get skewed.
I wonder sometimes-is it age? Money? Desperation to be seen as relevant? Not all aging folk who gain money and fame do this, of course, plenty of old schoolers keeping the faith as it were, but I do wonder what the common denominator is. Or if there even is one.
It continues. I just heard today (Pod Save the World) about a Palestinian prisoner viciously anally raped by his guards in the Israeli military. The guards were arrested, prompting disruptive protests from madmen who think what they did was justified and patriotic. People, boy I dunno.
Calley was a psycho, and deserved to spend the rest of his life in prison (we hanged Japanese officers for less at the end of WW2). That being said, My Lai/Son My definitely went higher than him and Medina.
The 23rd "Americal" Division already had a reputation for abusing civilians during "search and destroy" operations intended to root out NLF guerillas, but they were still getting lit up every time they went through the area known as "Pinkville." Senior commanders decided that NLF fighters were getting tipped off about US movements in the area by local villagers (which was probably correct), and that an example needed to be made before they could get down to winning "hearts and minds." Medina was almost certainly given a strong "suggestion" by divisional command.
Of course, Americal investigated itself after the massacre, and a certain Maj. Colin Powell determined that Calley and Medina were rogue elements and that the division had done nothing wrong.
I can tell you that when I was commissioned (1979) the subject of Mai Lai simply did not come up in the Army. There was a great deal of discussion about illegal orders and not following them, but Mai Lai didn't get mentioned.
Erik Loomis had a great post on Calley yesterday. The photo atop the article is devastating. The detailed description of the photo in the article is horrifying.
I was in the Air Force from August 1969 to August 1973. I did a year in Viet Name, January 1970 to January 1971. I was then transferred Homestead AFB (south of Miami) until discharge. I worked in the base's legal office. During that time, the Calley-Medina came to light. Medina was charged with UCMJ crimes and tried somewhere, I don't remember where. But, the trial judge was a guy by the name of Kennedy. One weekend he thought he wouldn't mind playing a little golf in south Florida. So, he flies into Homestead AFB on his way to a golf course. He needs a ride from the Homestead AFB terminal to the officer quarters - or some place like that. The Legal Office was a short (short) stone's throw from the base runways and terminal building. I was asked (ordered) to give Kennedy a ride - I used my own POV. Kennedy had become a bit of a known national figure because of that trial, so I knew who he was and was glad to give him a lift. My time with him was probably only 30-45 minutes and we shot the shit. He struck me a a pretty good guy and down to earth.
So, my touch with fame. (Btw, Nixon flew into Homestead AFB frequently, on his way to his place on Key Biscayne. Although they always had a welcoming party when he landed, I never took the time to take the 3 or 4 minute stroll over to the tarmac to see him. I hated Nixon like I hate Trump.)
My oldest brother spent two tours at Bien Hoa. His tales about the relative calm inside the wire inspired me to try enlisting in the Air Force, too. I jumped through all their hoops for almost two years before they rejected me over my juvenile record. They left me twisting in the wind with a draft number of 74 and a 1-A classification. I'm still surprised I didn't get called up, but I ain't complaining!
At the time,, If you expressed any concern about civilian casualties (aka collateral damage) you were a ":communist sympathizer" The fact that Calley was prosecuted was really quite surprising...
I have a family member who was in the military police. He has said that all soldiers are absolutely trained in what is illegal, and have the presumed right and duty to refuse an illegal order at a minimum. This is why the military doesn't get along with MAGA.
"The only good Injun is a dead Injun" Kinda gives an indication. "Manifest Destiny" was the equivalent of the ""Final Solution" After the Civil War, all attention was given to the wholesale genocide of the Indigenous population
If the equivalence had been exact, there would be no native population in the US at all. Certainly that was the intention of the Nazi "Final Solution," the complete extermination of the Jews, and other disfavored groups, over the whole of Europe.
Nixon received so many telegrams from Americans requesting clemency or a pardon for William Calley that he remarked to Henry Kissinger, “Most people don't give a shit whether he killed them or not.”
It was his job as a leader to make them give a shit.
Thanks, Doc, for the slap-in-the-face awareness of what lawlessness can do.
Ta, Dok. It's a very shameful and disgusting chapter in our history, and I am confident that President Harris won't pardon war criminals.
Fact is, Calley may have been making a true statement when he said he was "just following orders." There was testimony to that effect at Captain Medina's own Court Martial. The trial board did not find it credible enough to convict Medina, but that does not mean that it wasn't true or even that the board did not believe that it was true. It only means that it did not meet the standard of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt "
"Just following orders" is not an adequate defense, though. Not by itself. There is a duty to follow lawful orders; there is a corresponding duty to disobey unlawful ones. My own training, as an enlisted Marine a decade after My Lai made that excruciatingly clear. And if I had ever been involved in that situation in Calley's position, I would have damanded that any orders to kill non-combatant civilians be made clearly and unequivocally...and then refused them as unlawful if not modified to apply only to hostiles. And if it was not possible to formally refuse the orders (due to active combat or other circumstances) I would have interpreted them that way.
Calley should have known that. But it's possible he didn't. His selection and training was appallingly bad. Shockingly so, by my standards and experience from a decade later. He had some college, not much, definitely no degree. He successfully completed boot camp as an enlisted man. He passed a test. He was given eight weeks of Officer Candidate School and was then commissioned as a second lieutenant.
A decade earlier, I could literally have been William Calley. I had some college, not much. I went to boot camp, graduated successfully, with a recommendation for the Enlisted Commissioning Program. Had I been under the same system as Calley, I too would have gone immediately to OCS. And passed, OCS doesn't stress candidates any greater way than boot camp, except academically, which I would have easily handled. I would yet have turned nineteen when I received my bars.
The only reason it didn't happen that way is because by 1980, a commission required a college degree along with ROTC (NROTC for Marines), an advanced degree, or considerable experience as an enlisted man for some specialties, generally non-combat. The Enlisted Commissioning Program was not a ticket to OCS, it was a way to assist bright enlisted men to go to college while still serving in the Marine Reserves.
Calley was guilty, make no mistake there. But the failure belonged to the entire United States Government.
Thank you for the education. We do a lot of terrible things to the people we expect to kill and die for us, including not necessarily preparing them adequately. I didn't know any of this, and I'm old enough to remember My Lai.
That doesn't surprise me. My Lai was too big and too polarizing to get all the facts covered properly. Everybody was on a side, and whatever side anyone were on, some of the facts fucked up the story they wanted to tell. And of course some of them didn't become clear until much later.
"that Sy Hersh, who brought the My Lai atrocities to public notice and won the 1970 Pulitzer for it, has since become a conspiracy-chasing wackaloon himself. " ... this seems to happen so often, there must be something about the human brain where it breaks down and gets wacky...
Maybe it's cause and effect.
Think of some of the proven scandals that journalists have uncovered. This massacre. Watergate. The Tuskegee Experiment. Systemic corruption protecting the KKK. Foreign CIA coups. Iran-Contra affair. They all sound like the deluded ravings of a basement dwelling conspiracies... except they actually happened.
Like all investigators, reporters see how the sausage is made.
They have intimate knowledge of exactly how wild things can get. Like the health inspector who refuses to touch any food they haven't prepared personally, their filter may get skewed.
Joining a sad group of once upstanding journalists and lawyers who've gone over to the dark side....
I wonder sometimes-is it age? Money? Desperation to be seen as relevant? Not all aging folk who gain money and fame do this, of course, plenty of old schoolers keeping the faith as it were, but I do wonder what the common denominator is. Or if there even is one.
It continues. I just heard today (Pod Save the World) about a Palestinian prisoner viciously anally raped by his guards in the Israeli military. The guards were arrested, prompting disruptive protests from madmen who think what they did was justified and patriotic. People, boy I dunno.
Are there seriously no restrictions for presidential pardons? "War criminal" seems like it should be on the list.
Well, now there's no restriction for presidential ANYthing. 'Murica!
Calley was a psycho, and deserved to spend the rest of his life in prison (we hanged Japanese officers for less at the end of WW2). That being said, My Lai/Son My definitely went higher than him and Medina.
The 23rd "Americal" Division already had a reputation for abusing civilians during "search and destroy" operations intended to root out NLF guerillas, but they were still getting lit up every time they went through the area known as "Pinkville." Senior commanders decided that NLF fighters were getting tipped off about US movements in the area by local villagers (which was probably correct), and that an example needed to be made before they could get down to winning "hearts and minds." Medina was almost certainly given a strong "suggestion" by divisional command.
Of course, Americal investigated itself after the massacre, and a certain Maj. Colin Powell determined that Calley and Medina were rogue elements and that the division had done nothing wrong.
I can tell you that when I was commissioned (1979) the subject of Mai Lai simply did not come up in the Army. There was a great deal of discussion about illegal orders and not following them, but Mai Lai didn't get mentioned.
Erik Loomis had a great post on Calley yesterday. The photo atop the article is devastating. The detailed description of the photo in the article is horrifying.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2024/07/calley
Loomis is always on point, whether it's here or at his own place(s).
You kill civilians on the ground, they might prosecute you. You kill them from the air, they give you a medal, or even make you a Senator.
I was in the Air Force from August 1969 to August 1973. I did a year in Viet Name, January 1970 to January 1971. I was then transferred Homestead AFB (south of Miami) until discharge. I worked in the base's legal office. During that time, the Calley-Medina came to light. Medina was charged with UCMJ crimes and tried somewhere, I don't remember where. But, the trial judge was a guy by the name of Kennedy. One weekend he thought he wouldn't mind playing a little golf in south Florida. So, he flies into Homestead AFB on his way to a golf course. He needs a ride from the Homestead AFB terminal to the officer quarters - or some place like that. The Legal Office was a short (short) stone's throw from the base runways and terminal building. I was asked (ordered) to give Kennedy a ride - I used my own POV. Kennedy had become a bit of a known national figure because of that trial, so I knew who he was and was glad to give him a lift. My time with him was probably only 30-45 minutes and we shot the shit. He struck me a a pretty good guy and down to earth.
So, my touch with fame. (Btw, Nixon flew into Homestead AFB frequently, on his way to his place on Key Biscayne. Although they always had a welcoming party when he landed, I never took the time to take the 3 or 4 minute stroll over to the tarmac to see him. I hated Nixon like I hate Trump.)
My oldest brother spent two tours at Bien Hoa. His tales about the relative calm inside the wire inspired me to try enlisting in the Air Force, too. I jumped through all their hoops for almost two years before they rejected me over my juvenile record. They left me twisting in the wind with a draft number of 74 and a 1-A classification. I'm still surprised I didn't get called up, but I ain't complaining!
At the time,, If you expressed any concern about civilian casualties (aka collateral damage) you were a ":communist sympathizer" The fact that Calley was prosecuted was really quite surprising...
I have a family member who was in the military police. He has said that all soldiers are absolutely trained in what is illegal, and have the presumed right and duty to refuse an illegal order at a minimum. This is why the military doesn't get along with MAGA.
the good lord finds them all
-- Bagels' grandma
I wonder how many MyLai type massacres took place in Native American land that we never ever hear about?
Plenty that we do know about, too. Sand Creek. Wounded Knee. Round Valley. The list goes on.
hundreds? Almost assuredly.
Colonel Chivington has joined the chat.
Had to go look that one up. Yet another religious zealot asshole.
Yes.
"The only good Injun is a dead Injun" Kinda gives an indication. "Manifest Destiny" was the equivalent of the ""Final Solution" After the Civil War, all attention was given to the wholesale genocide of the Indigenous population
If the equivalence had been exact, there would be no native population in the US at all. Certainly that was the intention of the Nazi "Final Solution," the complete extermination of the Jews, and other disfavored groups, over the whole of Europe.
Nixon received so many telegrams from Americans requesting clemency or a pardon for William Calley that he remarked to Henry Kissinger, “Most people don't give a shit whether he killed them or not.”
It was his job as a leader to make them give a shit.